Is it a good thing that men and women seem to hate each other? No. But, to be blunt, it seems like the inevitable consequence in a patriarchal world that has oppressed women for centuries. I mean, this is the first generation where women have not faced massive economic and social backlash for decentering men and expressing their rage. Are we really surprised at women's reaction? Really? *Especially* considering the fall of Roe v Wade in the US? Women not liking men results in the girlies complaining online in sometimes angry, sometimes funny Tiktoks. Men not liking women results in a spike of men beating their pregnant girlfriends to death. What gender war? There is a war on women and femme-presenting people, but there is no war on men. There is female oppression and the very rational reaction to it.
"We are supposed to like each other." Yes, of course. But I don't expect any woman to apologize, to tone it down, or to swallow her anger at the boot on her neck. Remove the boot, and the culture will change.
I agree, why are we being told off for decentering men. If 2 out of 5 women yhat ate murdered are murdered by their partner then how is it bad that women are choosing not to settle down and have babies with the thing thats likely to kill her?
Virtually everyone who is murdered is murdered by someone they know. Women aren't special in this regard. 60% of all college entrants are female. At what percentage of male exclusion will you feel you've 'decentered' males sufficiently to appease your sense of vengeance?
The percentage of females murdered by an intimate partner was 5 times higher than for males.
Of the estimated 4,970 female victims of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter in 2021, data reported by law enforcement agencies indicate that 34% were killed by an intimate partner. By comparison, about 6% of the 17,970 males murdered that year were victims of intimate partner homicide.
Those 4,970 female victims of homicide are out of a population of about 167 million women in the US.
So do the math: About 0.003%, or approximately 1 in 34,000 American women, was a victim of homicide in 2021. Using your 34% figure, an American woman's odds of being killed by an intimate partner every year are approximately 1 in 100,000.
The women in this thread are making generalizations about *all* men based on a very, very small number of men.
Edit: My point is that statements like "X% of offenders are male", or similar, don't tell us the base rate of offenders. If being an offender is very rare, and most offenders are male, it's not fair to blame all men for this. Of course, even if it's rare we should work to reduce it.
You are looking at the incorrect statistics. And you are looking at them wrong. You are seeing what you want to see and avoiding what's uncomfortable for you. And it's super unsettling.
You remind me of a child who sticks their fingers in their ears yelling LALALA because they don't like what the adult is saying.
Here are some more gendered violence statistics for you:
1 out of 4 women and about 1 in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape, according to national data. (US)
In the US, in 2021, 93.6% of sexual abuse offenders were men.
It's a slightly dated source, but according to the DOJ, nearly 99% of perpetrators of rape & sexual assault are male.
As you can see the data varies, but between 93-99% of rapists are men.
I know you were trying to half-assedly use an illogical "bUt nUmBeRs!!!" fallacy to disprove my point, but you didn't. I'm sure if you were dating a woman who you cared deeply about and her ex-partner or spouse killed her, you would likely be upset. That one woman matters. Our fucking lives and safety matter.
"You are looking at the incorrect statistics. And you are looking at them wrong. You are seeing what you want to see and avoiding what's uncomfortable for you.
You remind me of a child who sticks their fingers in their ears yelling LALALA because they don't like what the adult is saying. "
You realize this is you, right?
What you're not getting is that your beloved *feminism* and it's political integration with the *authorities* is why your special pleading for women doesn't work.
And, its true that if some *man* killed a woman I cared about I would want to hurt that *man*.
It is also true that if some *woman* hurt some *man* I cared about, I would want to hurt that *woman*.
But in the first case, you'd probably say I didn't do enough soon enough.
However, in the second case, you'd say I was a misogynist.
Your entire ideology is dedicated to prioritizing the value of women over men. You don't care if men are injured doing work women won't do. You don't care that men have been marginalized from education and higher employment.
You just want what you want and you don't care if it hurts men.
Feminists want to leverage unfortunate situations into totalitarian control of society. Basically, a inverted 'Handmaid's Tale'.
Why should men go along with this?
You're the enemy now, everything you say will be treated as propaganda.
Please read the comments from men in this comments section and reconsider if you really want to throw this entire agenda a bone or agree in any shape or form with this post and the message/vibe it spreads 💕
What's wrong with men defending themselves? You're a good example of the anti-male culture that borders on exterminationist. Enjoy your 'world without men'.
HONEY I NEVER SAID I WANT A "WORLD WITHOUT MEN" - again - you are INVENTING sh*t and putting words in my mouth; again, you sound like a child sticking their fingers in their ears screaming LALALA because they don't like what they adult is saying - i never have ever in my entire life (especially not to you in this conversation) said i "want a world without men" what in the manifesto insanity are you TALKING about. At this point i can only assume you are trolling and just hoping to get a rise out of people whose views differ from you. If that is one of your goals in life- to be a troll- how utterly fcking sad for you. My goals in life are to learn and grow every day, to marvel at nature, to eat delicious foods, to propagate plants, to be a great friend, wife, daughter and person, to read books, to travel.... so many things that don't involve being a small minded, unoriginal hater.
I pray & hope you reach rock bottom soon so you can only go up. I hope you learn empathy, humility, argumentation, & i hope you grow. Peace bruhbruh. (If you simply respond with some bullsht like "ur the enemy you hate men u want all men to die" then you 100% have a tiny impotent penis and thats that. Gooooooobyyyyyyyeeeee🫠🤘
You do go on. And, of course, you have to insult my penis-size in order to try to shame a man into submitting to your temper-tantrum *because you're incapable of making a sound argument* supporting your position.
Feminism is the enemy of men. Especially White men.
As more men realize this, 'feminism' is going to find itself swept into the dustbin of history.
I wonder why what women wanted in the first movement-Women suffrage “votes for women, (without having to work or own property) and chastity for men (before marriage and not with minors or prostitutes), is almost the polar opposite of what women wanted in second wave feminism.
They are commonly painted as prudes but they also wanted temperance in order for the man to be fit to perform his husbandly duty to his wife.
Women refused to continue working after WW2 and only wanted to be mothers - hence baby boom! It was stopped by the introduction of the pill and campaigns developed by Edward Bernays “torches of freedom”. Second wave feminism was a documented government campaign to get women back into the workforce after the war. There was no organic movement for contraception, let alone abortion, no desire for casual sex or to work full time.
We have been manipulated to want these things that don’t make us happy. There is no patriarchy, just human society.
I'm pretty sure women did not "refuse to continue working" after WWII. They were fired en masse when soldiers returned, who either were given their previous jobs back, or were hired instead of women because of the prevailing "men must be the providers and breadwinners" philosophy. Working women were also habitually fired when they married or became pregnant. The baby boom was a logical consequence of women being forced back into the home. You really need to read a bit more about the lives of 1950s housewives and the rates of depression among women unhappy about being pushed back into a subservient role after having been independent productive money earning women.
No. Women were doing blue collar factory work. They were happy to let the men do that kind of work and have lots of baby-producing sex. It's feminists who think Women who focus on children and marriage as 'low status', not traditional men.
You clearly know little about women, even less about feminism, but claim to know what women think or want, and you reach conclusions based on non-existent data which you then spout as facts. Typical.
I've dealt with all kinds of women all my life. 'Data' produced by politicized 'studies' are just certified lies. We all believe what we want to believe. But some folks want to demand that everyone believe *only* 'authorized' beliefs. You know, authoritarians.
The Academy has destroyed its credibility by taking sides and attempting to export their culture of authoritarian sensitivity to the rest of society.
You're the enemy and everything you say is understood in that context.
Your pretensions to intellectual superiority are neither convincing nor amusing.
Let's do a gender swap. Imagine that you lived in a society where men were disadvantaged. You take pity on them, and do what you can to visit men in prison, help homeless men, etc. etc. But these men have no words of gratitude, only righteous anger -- anger they say is an "inevitable consequence and a very rational reaction to their oppression". How would that make you feel about your efforts to help?
Western society is very gender-equal by global standards and by historical standards, yet Western women are remarkably upset, and getting angrier every year. Can you see why Western men are starting to wonder whether Western women might just be impossible to please?
But let's take it even further: Is it really fair for women of this generation to take their anger out on the men of this generation for something the men of last generation did to the women of last generation?
Imagine that we are brother and sister. Our mother abuses our father, and as a man, this makes me angry. Would I have a right to take it out on you, my sister, in order to even the score?
You really just typed a bunch of words, hit 'send' and thought "Nailed it!", huh?
Please read books and peer-reviewed articles on argumentation, debate, gendered violence, hegemonic masculinity, sociology of gender, and criminology - and then we can have an actual conversation. Until then... I bid you good day.
So, you can't actually defend your position, then? You're an ideologue with a bunch of clapping seals hooting 'You go girl'.
'Studies' departments and the biased 'studies' they produce is one of the key reasons *all* academic production is treated with disdain by anyone not on academia.
The percentage of females murdered by an intimate partner was 5 times higher than for males.
Of the estimated 4,970 female victims of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter in 2021, data reported by law enforcement agencies indicate that 34% were killed by an intimate partner. By comparison, about 6% of the 17,970 males murdered that year were victims of intimate partner homicide.
You used ‘intimate partner’ without modification in a diatribe about ‘male violence’. It’s your fault you didn’t properly specify whether you meant that ‘intimate partner’ referred to all men or lesbians or both.
BTW, I’ve seen statistics that appear to show that lesbian relationships have a much higher incidence of domestic violence than any other kind of ‘intimate partnership’.
Since your 'solution' is 'masculinity' on feminist terms and no other, I prefer to be part of the problem. Women's violence is a global problem. You just don't see female violence as 'violence'.
And there are no credible sources for demographic information anywhere in the world.
They're all compromised by political agendas like feminism and anti-Whiteness.
To be honest there is no reason to hate each other.
We pretend that the majority of men rape or kill women. But that’s a negligible percentage and most women also don’t marry you fuck the carpenter and throw you out of your house you end up needing to pay despite not living in it
No one pretends the majority of men rape or kill women. No one is pretending here. This isn't make believe. This isn't a game. This is people's lives.
First hand accounts + police reports + governmental agencies' data will show you that hegemonic masculinity is harmful and violent to all genders.
More so, 96-99% of rape perpetrators are men.
One out of every three women are raped. 91% of rape victims are female. 9% are male. And again - of those 9% of men being raped, around 98% of rapists are also men. Women die of domestic violence 5x more often than men.
Just a handful of actual statistics that cant be argued with no matter how much people try to.
Gendered violence statistics can overwhelmingly point to men hating women. We don't all "hate each other" as you've so eloquently put. Also WILD that in your example of hate you essentially compare your wife cheating on you with the carpenter to RAPE AND MURDER. 😳
Loss is loss. Heartbreak sucks. I am not saying being cheated on does not suck. I am not saying its cool to cheat or lie. But sir. It is not the same as RAPING someone or being RAPED. Certainly not comparable to murder!?
I think your energy would be much better spent trying to educate yourself and be an ally, and just a kind person.
This is hilarious in fact. I think you are the bigot here. I try to advocate understanding towards each other but you need to blast of your crap of me comparing rape with infidelity. Where did I say those are equally bad things but go on. Because of people like you the democrats keep loosing. Good thing I don’t live in the US
Also maybe maybe you should also know that men kill each other far more frequently then they kill women, but deriving from the fact that some men kill women that men hate women is a bit of a stretch. Do men hate men too now? After all they kill each other more frequently. Like you pop feminist lack any amount of self criticism towards the things you people made up. Like be open for other opinions. Don’t just assume shit
So what does that mean can’t I compare the holocaust with the attack on Ukraine. Or apples with oranges. What’s your point yes I compare cheating with rape, maybe I will soon compare chocolate ice with biscuits. I think your energy would be better spend on being genuine and don’t assume that I am an idiot just because I gave two examples of bad behavior
I don’t know the statistics but as far I didn’t miss anything nothing you said contradicts what I said. Your first paragraphs truth value depends on what hegemonic masculinity means for you.
If 33% of women are raped this doesn’t mean that the equal amount of men are rapists. It’s far more likely that a few serial rapists rape their way through life. First it depends on which country you are talking about not all countries have the same amount of rapists or victims, second the facts you state don’t contradict anything I said.
There are so many examples of societies where women have far less rights and pirlvedges than men, and yet the men and women seem to get along fine in those places.
Here's one fun study of women who go out running amd hiking -
A study by Dr. Miles and Professor Broad from The University of Manchester found women surveyed in Greater Manchester and Merseyside suffered from threats, verbal abuse, being flashed at, physical and sexual assaults, and having objects thrown at them while out running.
Of the survey respondents, 68% said they had experienced some form of abusive behavior. The most common type was verbal abuse, with 58% of the women who responded reporting that they had experienced this. However, a substantial number of women also said they had been followed while out running (19%), flashed at (7%), or received other types including abuse from men in vehicles (13%). Thirteen women said they had been physically assaulted while out running, and seven women had been sexually assaulted.
Despite the high prevalence of abuse, 95% of women respondents who said they have experienced it said they did not report it to the police. Of those who did report it, most indicated there was some follow up and support but no substantial outcome, often because the perpetrator could not be identified.
For the women who said they did not report abuse to the police, a variety of reasons were given including the abuse of women in public being so normalized that experiences are perceived as trivial and part of everyday life, not judging incidents to be criminal offenses, not wanting to waste police time, and doubts over whether the police would be interested or take their report seriously.
Perhaps not surprisingly given their experiences and perceptions, 82% of respondents said that they worried about their personal safety while out running.
Over the past 20 years, a growing body of research has indicated an increase in SHSA across a wide array of sports and athletic activities (Ayala et al. 2021; Fasting 2016; Gündüz et al. 2008; Messner 2002; Rintaugu et al. 2014). As the prevalence of SHSA across various sports has increased, so has the number of incidents in the running community. When several U.S. women runners were victims of homicide in 2016, fear and anger sparked throughout the community, prompting Runner’s World (Hamilton 2017) to survey runners’ experiences and responses to SHSA. Of the 4670 respondents, 43% of women reported being harassed while running, which increased to 50% for those between 30 and 35 years old and to 58% for women under 30.
Only FOUR PERCENT OF MEN also reported being catcalled, stalked, or sexually assaulted while running.
These statistics also don't say what gender was doing the stalking/catcalling to the male runners, but I'd take a gander to say it was mostly men.
Kindly READ SOME BOOKS AND TAKE YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR TOXIC ARSE.
Thank you for stating the obvious. What's most frustrating about this to me is that a man even gesturing to this dynamic among women online (read: most "normie" spaces on the internet/social media) usually results in severe backlash. You can't acknowledge the reductive statements as reductive, the contempt as contempt, or the double standards as double standards without being thoroughly excoriated for daring to criticize the behavior of women.
You’re proving his point exactly. Outside of the obviously dysfunctional manosphere there’s not much room to talk about this kind of serious issue, because many people are so sensitive to the idea of criticizing women in this way that it gets shut down. Both sexes have problems with how they view the other. That one has a small minority that vehemently hates/is envious of women does not let the other side, where low level misandry is commonplace, off the hook.
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. You think because you can't get Tinder matches that everyone is afraid to criticize women.
You don't see how women are discussed in the media, by men in general, by men historically because it doesn't affect you and as a male you do not have the capability to engage in self-awareness.
Just because nobody wants to fuck you doesn't mean women don't get treated like shit, both historically and globally.
It's not both sides. Stop telling yourself that because you can't get a date.
And if your best comeback BUT IT'S NOT ALL THOUGH, then thanks for proving my point. You morons can't argue to save your life.
Go tell your amazing ideas to the Taliban, to women in prisons who are forced to share cells with male rapists (because when a man says he "feels like" he's a woman, the whole world has to listen!), and women forced to carry dead fetuses in Texas. Like there aren't multiple podcasts literally dedicated to humiliating women by men who can't get laid so they can feel better about themselves. It's non-stop, in the media, everywhere.
The casual, unembarrassed contempt for men that many women, particularly younger ones, give voice to is extraordinarily annoying and obnoxious. If I were a young man, I would be strongly repulsed by it.
Completely agree. Nowadays if you’re younger and don’t hate men you’re titled a “pick me” especially for having male friends. Its become trendy to hate men, but when a man hates a woman, its suddenly a horrible thing to do? Of course it is, but what do you expect when some women are so open and proud about their hatred of the other sex. That behavior attracts exactly what it puts out. It’s sexism either way. Its immaturity and ignorance either way. Sincerely, a woman who is fed up with people normalizing hate.
The fact that someone like you unironically exists irl brings me so much joy, I would love to meet you and see how deranged you act in a public setting
To be honest there is no reason to hate each other.
We pretend that the majority of men rape or kill women. But that’s a negligible percentage and most women also don’t marry you fuck the carpenter and throw you out of your house you end up needing to pay despite not living in it
Men had no problem when they could get away with treating ALL women like shit for centuries. You guys get a little taste of your own medicine, for a short while, and you all fall apart.
Pathetic.
Go tell the Taliban about your amazing ideas. You people are so fucking stupid it's exhausting. After everything, the best you can come up with is BUT NOT ALL MEN RAPE! The bar is on the floor. Thanks for proving my point.
If men are so bad go and live in the woods don’t use our inventions hhhhhhhhh. No antibiotics got you. I can use all female inventions after all I like women hhhhhhhh
That’s disingenuous it’s not a that common occurrence to rape and murder like less than 1% of people do that. Why can’t you admit that some men invented vaccines and saved millions of women. And I know sexist societies and thinking that only men treat women bad is very delusional.
Super racist why am I a colonizer I am born here. People should be judged by their actions. Judging from your actions I am a far mor civil person
I am starting to appreciate her pure hate. If I learned she was like this celibate tech Chinese misandrist that did IVF to not have any contact with men and not have a male baby, I would have to tip my hat to her.
Hookup culture creates an environment where most women hook up with some of the worst men society has to offer at least once. The tall, handsome, or successful men, but emotionally cold and immature and sociopathic men are what most women think of when they think of “men” because they do not think of unattractive men as “men” since they don't have any sexual contact with them.
I wonder how much of this is downstream from hookup culture and the idea that all women can approach sex as casually as men. If women are harmed, emotionally or physically, by casual sex, that could naturally lead to a level of distaste for men. The Case Against the Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry has some thought-provoking points on this subject that would be relevant to the discussion (though some of her conclusions fall short).
Oh yeah, that book is fantastic. I think she nailed it, and you're right about hookup culture being part of the problem. Notice that in my description of how "I love men," I specify that I especially love those with whom I have a platonic relationship. I keep the ones wanting sex at arm's length. I think if everyone ditched hookup culture and focused on just having friends of whatever gender, there'd be more happiness and less hate.
I think the women "disliking men" thing is a running joke. In my experience, women who talk like that are having plenty of sex with men. If you are a man, and you hear women talking like that, and you take it seriously / get offended, you are failing an EQ test.
That being said, it's probably not good for your psyche to casually dislike the opposite sex. Even if you are a lesbian, you will still have to be friends with your brother-in-law, etc.
>I think the women "disliking men" thing is a running joke. In my experience, women who talk like that are having plenty of sex with men. If you are a man, and you hear women talking like that, and you take it seriously / get offended, you are failing an EQ test.
Are you? Or are you just reacting like a human would to a situation in which dehumanizing language is normalized?
If that kind of language was used about women you'd be pitching a fit.
You didn't address any of my questions. You don't have a point.
Asking men to submit to being constantly told they're inferior and unwanted, and then treat the people using this language to them well, is asking men to be psychologically unhealthy. You'd never ask this of women or any other group.
i think you’re exactly right, i’ve had this conversation with my boy friend and a lot of my guy friends.
i hear these statements all the time from girls sitting next to their boyfriend or out with guy friends. it’s a litmus test or a dare- prove you’re good, submit to this mild degradation as a small tax for all that women have to go through. and i think they should. they guys who get fussy when they hear a casual “i hate men” typically suck.
but words hurt people, it sucks to hear that you’re hated and a monster all the time, especially when you’re young. i don’t make i hate men statements anymore (i’m a feminist, certainly not a male apologist, and have been wronged terribly by many men). i know and love some really awesome guys. and i’ve talked to them about it, they get it, it’s cool, but it does hurt them. and these are adults, middle schoolers don’t have the emotional maturity to understand how two things can be true at once or how it’s not really about them.
it is a tricky issue though, both this and the male loneliness thing, because they are real issues effecting real people we love and have compassion for, but asking women to baby men as a solution is absurd.
women’s hatred of men comes from lived experience and fear. fear of violence, yes, but for me all the more common than that is not being seen as a full person by so many of the people around you. people you want to date, people you want to befriend, people you work with or work under. not all men, yes, but the bad ones look the same and are totally intermixed with the good. who wants to roll the dice? always easy to be diagnostic and not prescriptive, who knows how to fix it. with gender based violence and the history of women’s oppression “everyone be nice and equal now you’re hurting the boys feelings” is not a solution.
if politically you’re interested in fighting for a better world you cant leave out ~50% of people, you have to bring them along or we’ll never get anywhere. and we have places to go.
> i hear these statements all the time from girls sitting next to their boyfriend or out with guy friends. it’s a litmus test or a dare- prove you’re good, submit to this mild degradation as a small tax for all that women have to go through.
Maybe Americans are different but if my girlfriend intentionally tried to degrade me to make me 'prove' I'm good knowing that it would hurt my feelings, I'd be INCREDIBLY sad. My girlfriend complains about men fairly frequently and I've pretty much always agreed, but she would literally never try to degrade me on purpose because she...cares about me? I've had female friends (hell, my current best friend is female) and I've never heard them say this around me either.
Additionally, why make your boyfriend 'prove' himself? Ideally you'd have done that before you started dating them. It's a horrible test anyhow. If you want to test whether someone sees you as a full person you should be looking for more insightful analysis than whether they got annoyed by a joke. It's almost a meme how many men pretend to be feminist in order to have sex with women: this is a terrible strategy!
I can understand women being misandrist as a form of venting or to cope with bad male behavior. But doing it purely to degrade your friends is miserable and emotionally abusive (not talking to you directly). This isn't a "babying men" issue, it's a "have basic human empathy" issue. Generally speaking, people SHOULD be nice and equal to not hurt others' feelings. It's not a man or woman thing, it's just the best way for our world to be remotely enjoyable.
agree with you, it’s a bad strategy born out of a toxic situation. i do want to clarify this is not my approach and never has been with my boyfriend or my guy friends, just a behavior i’ve noticed in others.
i’ve talked to a lot of my friends about words having meaning and being kinder in general, I’m not sure if it’s uniquely american or if i know terrible people or something but casual cruelty is not that uncommon. maybe “degrade” was too strong of a word but i do think it’s degrading to essentially tell someone you hate them to their face and expect them to smile and nod. i was just trying to say that the statement is disingenuous, clearly they don’t actually just hate men, so i think that the testing of the response is a big motivation for the behavior.
as you said, the solution is to be nice to each other, and to just see everyone as an individual person and treat them as such, but i think if the message is “girls please be nicer to the boys” that comes off babying vibes, at least to me.
if you’re talking to smart and rational people, for the most part, a lot of this is sort of a non-issue and everyone can speak kindly to each other, listen to each others perspectives and feelings, and say things they actually mean, but clearly this is just … not what’s going on.
almost every women has gone through a lot of pain that they wouldn’t have experienced if they were not a woman. rage is a pretty natural response and and i don’t know where woman should put it. it’s not the correct response but i cant overly judge anyone on a small (probably a little unconscious) misdirected hit back. i would say that everyone should stop posting that they hate each other and everyone honestly should log off. but that’s not gonna happen.
i’m sorry if my comment implied i thought that behavior i described is okay or that that’s how i think relationships should operate - it’s really not.
I agree with everything you said! I got far too mad in my initial reply, I think I accidentally thought you were cosigning the behavior described. I really do sympathize with women in this regard and I agree that we should try to not make it seem like women should baby men.
Joe: "Women are crazy, they belong in the kitchen"
Jane: "Misogynist!"
Joe: *rolls eyes* "We shouldn't have to baby women this way. 'Everyone be nice and equal now you're hurting the women's feelings' -- that's not a solution."
The hypocrisy aggravates me, I confess. I just want people to take a consistent position.
Next you'll be saying "expecting men to be tough reinforces patriarchy; we need to create space for men to express their emotions"
Failing an Emotional Quality? test because I think it's retarded that a lot of females want to hate ALL men because they've been brianwashed by the " women have been slaves for millenia" bullshit?
People in general are unserious and having self confidence means being able to relax and take a joke at your own expense. Especially when all other evidence suggests they are joking
This has never happened to me and I refuse to believe this is a common experience. The median woman is not inviting men they dislike back to their house to engage in rape fantasy
At some point you will have to confront the reality that you are neither the template of human existence, nor is everyone sharing your experience.
Might as well start now.
Refusing to believe something doesn't make it any less true.
And by admitting to being the kind of person who utilizes this strategy, you are also admitting to being the kind of person who intentionally deludes themselves.
I don't know that living in denial is a useful, or mature, strategy for life.
Real disdain between the sexes is a serious problem.
The reason man-hating by women isn't as big a deal in our society as the reverse is that nobody takes women themselves seriously when they spout off about such things. She'll likely decide she likes men tomorrow if it suits her fancy. Not saying it's ok for women to be this way, since real damage can be and is done from their whimsy, whether they like it or not.
But men expressing their disdain for women, on the other hand, are taken seriously. Sensing the seriousness of these men, and the problems it poses for human continuity, to say nothing of flourishing, it is recognized as a real problem, and confronted as such.
It's also, I suspect, the reason women voicing their dislike of men is so ubiquitous and normalized. There are no consequences for their doing so, certainly no serious bad feedback. They feel quite free to complain about men because it feels good to do so, at least in the moment, and no one is likely to call them out on it.
Yah. Women saying they hate men is interpreted as frustration or disappointment. The expectation is that it will pass.
Men don't use words to express frustration or disappointment. So men saying that they hate women is interpreted as expressing the result of lengthy deliberations, not in-the-moment emotions. That's why it's taken seriously.
Re the "war of the sexes", the opposite of love is not hate but indifference. It will be time to worry when the fashion, cosmetics, and diet industries crash and burn. Or when sex robots go completely mainstream, and men self-segregate into male-coded jobs like construction or mining.
Ha, no. Sex segregation is actually the antidote. I’m 50. The rot began in the 90s but girls listened to Hole and boys Nirvana. We got drunk and boys were still allowed to be boys and if they copped a feel you wouldn’t call the police or call it abuse. When Julian Assange got arrested for rape (sex with sleeping person) we all thought it was outrageous because is normal Australian sex. We want to be woken up that way. The reason why men v women, women v men is this: the expectation that we are the same. We’re not. And understanding that allows for great sex and endless compassion for our different, often conflicting needs.
A friend of mine told me an overly long, convoluted, meandering tale that when distilled translated into: "I'm horny now, but I don't want to do it yet. I want to fall asleep and then be awoken by what feels like your unrestrainable desire at some point between midnight and dawn tomorrow morning."
In my bubble this seems like a pareto distribution problem; (maybe?) 20% of the population making 80% of the noise? I am around teens and young adults a lot, and they all seem to like each other fine. I accept that the "reality" seems different on "some" and youtube (substack even); but IRL around my parts, it seems to only apply to certain groups of female university students (not liking men) and male gamers (not liking/even despising women in a slightly autistic way).
There's a distribution of male personality characteristics and female, with lots of overlap in these curves, but at the extreme ends on either side, there's virtually no overlap. What all this is about is the tail end of both distributions hating each other because 1. They truly have nothing in common and no shared motivations, feelings, interests, or ability to comprehend each other, but 2. Still wanting to get together to mate, and 3. Now being exposed to exactly how the other really thinks, because it's all out there on the internet now and exposed for the other to see, while this type of person used to be cordoned off into male or female centric spaces where they didn't hear each other.
There are plenty of people in the overlapping part of the bell curves who get along just fine and who are quite happy together and having a fine and dandy time. In a sense, for them things may have never been better. The people on the tail ends have a problem though. They truly do not like each other, at all, and only view each other for instrumental purposes. Therefore they simply spend all their time thinking about how to dominate and/or weaken the other side in order to be able to take ownership of and control them, because they really just want to extract something from them, they don't enjoy them as people in their own right. These are the people making all the noise and who are trying to drag everyone down with them in their misery.
They're also highly threatened by the people in the overlap. Those people have no trouble with relationships and are typically much more attractive relationship partners. They view them as intersexual competition and therefore spend just as much time trying to shame, denigrate, and lower the status of the overlap people as they do hating on the opposite sex. Very female-strong personality tail type women will call overlap women pick mes who are traitors to their gender. Very male-strong personality tail type men will call overlap men soyboys and simps and cucks. These are blatant attempts to try to neutralize intersexual competition by lowering the status of the most romantically successful, so that they can continue on waging war against the opposite sex.
First of all, what an honor to get a reply from you, Kryptogal (Kate, if you like), cool! I appreciate both the reply and your writing! I believe you are absolutely right. They; "the people making all the noise and who are trying to drag everyone down with them in their misery", are both verbose and industrious, so they do take up a lot of space-
Well, thank you! And I hope you forgive that my phone auto-corrected all my instances of intrasexual to intersexual. :/
These verbose and industrious angry people online really are a problem though, and not just for each other but for all of us. Because it's easy to see too much of that stuff and start thinking they are representative of the whole, or more common than they seem. I will admit that if I ever make the terrible mistake of going on Twitter, I can easily come away feeling like I hate men, because of how vitriolic they are there. This despite the fact that literally no man in real life has ever behaved in that manner or expressed such thoughts/feelings, and I have no reason at all to hate men based on my daily dealings with them in life. It's purely an online-only phenomenon. I'm not on Tik Tok, but maybe I'd think the same of women if I was. And this also applies to lots of other dimensions of polarization too (political, age-based, etc). Everyone has a tendency to dismiss and/or forgive extremes and bad behavior on their own "side", because they don't view it as representative, but people rarely grant that much grace to others.
I agree with 99% of this post, because the the 1% is there are indeed soyboy simp cucks who, you guessed it:
are not part of the overlap people, because if they weren't, they would be in the "overlap" group OR attempting to transition into the "overlap" group.
> Unlike the Manosphere, this world of women who dislike men isn’t propped up by many notable female figures whose claim to fame is touting some sort of pro-women ideology. I instead get the sense that it is propped up largely by everyday people, run-of-the-mill girls who see themselves as part of the norm
I'll push back on the idea that there are not women propping up this pro-woman ideology. Arguably, do female pop stars not fulfill the same role as the manosphere influencers? Some examples:
- Sabrina Carpenter's "Please Please Please" is about how the guy she's seeing is embarrassing and she doesn't want to be seen in public with him
- Olivia Rodrigo's "Vampire" is about how the guy she used to date is a sociopath
- Miley Cyrus's "Flowers" is about how she can be independent
- Ariana Grande's "thank u, next" is also about how she can be independent
- Haven't listened to it, but Beyonce's "Lemonade" album is about Jay-Z's infidelity
- Taylor Swift has built an entire career on writing songs about her relationships with men and how they hurt her
It's not as explicit as the manosphere influencers (except for Sabrina Carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo, who are pretty explicit in what they are saying) but I'd argue these women serve the same function as memetic superspreaders of these ideas
Notice how all of your examples are of singers. Why are there no prominent female versions of Andrew Tate? What is the female version of PUAs? The closest I can think of are "femininity coaches," (which is really just diluted and repackaged sex worker tactics) and even they aren't necessarily misandrist.
I understand. I don't think the singers have that same level of influence as manosphere guys (as someone who's been in manosphere spaces for a long time)
“I don't think the singers have that same level of influence as manosphere guys”
I would be interested in hearing how you reached that conclusion and how you are quantifying influence here.
Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande, and Miley Cyrus have an order of magnitude more followers on social media than any manosphere influencer.
Andrew Tate, as an example, has been banned from the Meta family of social networks, TikTok, and YouTube. He has 10.1M followers on X/Twitter.
Taylor Swift, by contrast, has not been banned from any social platform. She has 95M followers on Twitter, 283M on Instagram, 33M on TikTok, 92M monthly listeners on Spotify, and 80M followers on Facebook. Even eliminating people following her on multiple platforms, that’s still an audience of a couple hundred million vs Andrew Tate’s 10M. You could pull similar numbers for Beyoncé, Ariana Grande, and Miley Cyrus. Sabrina Carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo aren’t quite there yet but they each have about 40M on insta so I’d say they are still ahead of any manosphere influencer (closest seems to be Dan Bilzerian at 31.5M).
I got exposed to masculinity guru content like a decade ago, and the community at the time had “Fight Club” rules where you didn’t talk about it in public. It’s incredibly niche compared to these pop stars, who have audiences in the hundreds of millions.
I’m struggling to see how you can make a good faith argument that the manosphere is more influential than pop music
I'm referring to influence in the sense of, most of these women hear those songs and may enjoy it, but it's more of a passive enjoyment (I'm fully aware that there are stans). Whereas in the manosphere, there is a bit of an active component there. These singers are not selling courses or books on how to "level up." They're entertainers. These men are positioning themselves as educators/leaders/gurus - that's the difference.
-Ashnikko's "Stupid" is a rad fem tirade that went viral (100M) with imagery about killing men and dehumanising lyrics. Far more extreme than even the darkest black pillers.
-Kimbra's "Settle down" Catastrophising fears about being replaced and abandoned.
I don't even consider their ideology pro woman. More fearful and anti-life.
It's true. The manosphere has a tiny insignificant influence compared to music. More a vocalization of a emergent reaction in men than something steering things.
All of these women have songs about being in love. Beyoncé’s album ended with her forgiving her husband and celebrating their love. You’re not seriously comparing break-up songs to human sex trafficking…right?
That’s a much better criticism of my initial comment, thank you.
Male pop stars do write break up songs. However, I’d argue that predominantly their audiences are women. Justin Bieber, Charlie Puth, Shawn Mendes, Harry Styles, Justin Timberlake, John Mayer, and so on all have audiences of mostly women. In terms of influence with men, I’d say all of these artists fall short of a true comparison here.
The best comparison to my initial comment I can think of is Drake (in terms of popularity with men, influence, social media following, etc.). I’d argue though that Drake is predominantly known for his public feuding with other rappers, more so than having a particular view of women. But even in his most famous “break up” song (Marvin’s Room), the lyrics are him criticizing the dude his ex is with and saying fuck that guy, rather than demonize his ex directly like most female pop stars would.
I'm am old guy who grew up in the 70s and 80s and remember very well hearing women complain about men, and also hearing men complain about women (though to be fair, the latter was much less common even then). However, something has definitely changed. There seems to be a significant percentage of women (at least online) who have really taken on board the idea that half of the world's population is just wandering around casually beating and raping the other half, which is insane to me. Couple that with academics and advocacy groups that have a clear benefit in exaggerating any ACTUAL problems and things get even messier. Likewise, there seems to be a huge portion of men who think that every woman is just looking for an opportunity to trick them into a lawsuit, or hoping to marry them so they can eventually divorce them and "take half their stuff," which again seems crazy to me.
As a father of three kids, two of whom are girls, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this. At the risk of being accused of mansplaining I'll tell women the exact same thing I tell my brothers and male friends: yes, there are bad people out there. Yes, it sucks to be hurt, physically, emotionally, financially. But when you start wanting to write off half the world's population remember 2 things:
first, because we only date the opposite sex, then by default the only people who can REALLY hurt us are going to be the opposite sex. So it is really easy (but totally unfair) to assume everyone of the opposite sex will hurt you.
Second, the fact that your ex did <insert bad thing here> has LITERALLY NOTHING TO DO with any other person out there. This is akin to saying, my first landlord was a Filipino and screwed me over on my security deposit, so now I think that all Filipinos are untrustworthy.
This is not new. I am 71. My mom and her gf neighbors sat around and ragged on their husbands for hours in coffee fueled complaint fests. This was 1960. But it was sort of like the slaves back in their cabins bitching about their masters. That said, I actually like men and I have been married for 40 years to a good one. His mom and sisters deserve some credit.
So it might be just how social dynamics between the sexes have always been throughout human history which is quite depressing to think about but I’m not sure. What’s your take on it?
The thing is I think, if you’re heterosexual, you have to keep your resentment towards the opposite sex low if you actually want to be successful. You just can’t be a man-hater or woman-hater and be in a relationship like that at the same time. Ofc you can’t rid yourself of some bile, but that shouldn’t be enough for you to make broad, damning generalizations
Yes, but the weird thing is that I see SO MUCH LESS hate in queer and asexual spaces. I never hear lesbians talking about how they hate men, ever. Usually, they have a lot of gay male friends. Same with aces; they tend to hate sexually aggressive behavior but don't turn it into more general misandry. Why is it that straights seem to hate each other more?
Academic lesbian college professors like Sally Miller Gearhart and Mary Daly were the source of a lot of institutional misandry that you see in the Anglosphere today. The former actually gave a talk about reducing the population of men to 10% of the world population; the title should be familiar - The Future-if there is one-is Female. Daly agreed and called it a "necessary decontamination of the Earth."
There are others. This hatred is not limited to heterosexuals.
I'm wondering how much this is a regional thing, because you're describing *exactly* the way I felt in NY in 2020/2021. But now, living in South Dakota, I'm Queen of the Queers lol. But gay culture here is what gay culture was in New York 20 years ago. So I know exactly what you're talking about, and I should probably communicate WAY more clearly about these things online because "queer", "liberal", etc means something different in South Dakota than in places like New York.
Oh god, I had almost forgotten how much they hate "cis" people there. I'm bi, and still got the "cishet" hate because I was dating a man lol. Ugh, what did I sign up for by taking a trip there next month?
They hate "cis" people but sure do spend a lot of time trying to emulate them (same with queer folks claiming they hate heteronormativity but still emulate them).
To be honest, I have had quite a few lesbian friends and they were very avid about hating men, and never wanted to hear about them or would get uncomfortable if I even mentioned a man. They are non-binary, but call themselves lesbians, just to clarify.
This is partly because lesbians are great. I’ve always gotten along very well with lesbians and was practically raised by some very kind, wise gay women. I think it’d because they have no expectations about masculinity, either positive or negative, and treat men as individuals.
Right, it’s a segment of society where no one has to worry about rigid “traditional” roles as much. I think men need to be liberated from being shoehorned into specific roles and expectations just as much as women do.
Completely disagree. Firstly I’ve seen vicious lesbians DV is common in their relationships. They write articles bullying the butch lesbians for being “patriarchal” on here too.
And the problem is now that people who are suited for roles have to fight a system that pushes against them. No one’s shoehorned anything since the 70s. Expectations for anything have collapsed leaving people aimless and not knowing what the other party wants.
I guess this goes with my theory that "it's not men that people are hating on, it's a specific type of male sexual attention/energy." All the misandrist stuff I see online is 100% in the context of sex/dating, never in the context of just being friends or whatever.
I’m not sure it’s necessarily less media driven than the manosphere. Part of why the manosphere has a few big names is because it’s out of cultural power, so confined to a few specialty influencers.
But feminism is practically the default now. “Future is female”, rhetoric about the threat about men to women (even if it’s actually gone down in absolute terms, and has always been less than the threat from to men from men), or just generally portraying men as useless and ‘should be happy she’s around’ . passing comments in shows and celebrities add up, even if they’re not part of some campaign
i dont get either trend, im pro men and women and i also dont live in this world, i still know plenty of people liking and obsessing over the opposite sex. i think the best thing people should do is get off tiktok cuz theres a big world out there.
This post lacks so much nuance and conveniently leaves out the power dynamics of the last several centuries?? There is not a 'gender war'...there is a war on women and girls.
This write up is the equivalent of if i wrote an entire piece about "people of color saying they hate white people is so crazy/unfair/not helping", "its a race war" "leave white people alone" Like, tf?
White supremacy/white people uphold the power in the racial power dynamic. Men hold the power in the gender power dynamic. This is fact. This is how the human world has been for quite some time. About five thousand different statistics can confirm this.
Side note: All of these men in these comments and their unhinged and rude responses to women very much proves the point you're trying so desperately to negate with this post. Jesus this sh*t's exhausting.
I'm weird with this stuff... I hate dating and don't enjoy penetrative sex at all due to medical problems. I don't really want a boyfriend/husband (although I have loved what it does to society's perception of me when I'm in a relationship...). I don't want to be in a situation where I feel I'm supposed to be "putting out". However, I actually *love* men. My entire life, I've always had close platonic relationships with people of all genders. Some of my favorite people are men I'm platonically involved with and not romantically/sexually involved with. Attempts to make it anything but platonic would ruin it.
I wonder if women who are 100% heterosexual have more contempt/misandry going on because they can't take the pressures around sex, etc., out of the equation the way queers and aces can? I *never* get the sense in LGBTQ+ communities or in asexual groups that men and women hate each other; this seems to be a heterosexual dating problem.
There are even gay groups online that spoof this by asking, "Are the straights OK?" and then everyone talks about how "no, the straights are definitely not OK." Maybe heteros need to look at what queers and aces are doing that makes them not hate any one gender?
Ofc no one could not reasonably address everything about gender, GBSV and the “gender war” in this limited amount of word but dammit this was a good and refreshing read.
Is it a good thing that men and women seem to hate each other? No. But, to be blunt, it seems like the inevitable consequence in a patriarchal world that has oppressed women for centuries. I mean, this is the first generation where women have not faced massive economic and social backlash for decentering men and expressing their rage. Are we really surprised at women's reaction? Really? *Especially* considering the fall of Roe v Wade in the US? Women not liking men results in the girlies complaining online in sometimes angry, sometimes funny Tiktoks. Men not liking women results in a spike of men beating their pregnant girlfriends to death. What gender war? There is a war on women and femme-presenting people, but there is no war on men. There is female oppression and the very rational reaction to it.
"We are supposed to like each other." Yes, of course. But I don't expect any woman to apologize, to tone it down, or to swallow her anger at the boot on her neck. Remove the boot, and the culture will change.
The boot is not on your neck. It's in your imagination.
I agree, why are we being told off for decentering men. If 2 out of 5 women yhat ate murdered are murdered by their partner then how is it bad that women are choosing not to settle down and have babies with the thing thats likely to kill her?
Virtually everyone who is murdered is murdered by someone they know. Women aren't special in this regard. 60% of all college entrants are female. At what percentage of male exclusion will you feel you've 'decentered' males sufficiently to appease your sense of vengeance?
The percentage of females murdered by an intimate partner was 5 times higher than for males.
Of the estimated 4,970 female victims of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter in 2021, data reported by law enforcement agencies indicate that 34% were killed by an intimate partner. By comparison, about 6% of the 17,970 males murdered that year were victims of intimate partner homicide.
https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offender-relationship-2021
Those 4,970 female victims of homicide are out of a population of about 167 million women in the US.
So do the math: About 0.003%, or approximately 1 in 34,000 American women, was a victim of homicide in 2021. Using your 34% figure, an American woman's odds of being killed by an intimate partner every year are approximately 1 in 100,000.
Her odds of dying in a car accident in 2021 are approximately 10x as high: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/death-rates-road-incidents?tab=table
The women in this thread are making generalizations about *all* men based on a very, very small number of men.
Edit: My point is that statements like "X% of offenders are male", or similar, don't tell us the base rate of offenders. If being an offender is very rare, and most offenders are male, it's not fair to blame all men for this. Of course, even if it's rare we should work to reduce it.
You are looking at the incorrect statistics. And you are looking at them wrong. You are seeing what you want to see and avoiding what's uncomfortable for you. And it's super unsettling.
You remind me of a child who sticks their fingers in their ears yelling LALALA because they don't like what the adult is saying.
Here are some more gendered violence statistics for you:
1 out of 4 women and about 1 in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape, according to national data. (US)
In the US, in 2021, 93.6% of sexual abuse offenders were men.
It's a slightly dated source, but according to the DOJ, nearly 99% of perpetrators of rape & sexual assault are male.
As you can see the data varies, but between 93-99% of rapists are men.
I know you were trying to half-assedly use an illogical "bUt nUmBeRs!!!" fallacy to disprove my point, but you didn't. I'm sure if you were dating a woman who you cared deeply about and her ex-partner or spouse killed her, you would likely be upset. That one woman matters. Our fucking lives and safety matter.
Sources:
https://www.charliehealth.com/post/sexual-assault-statistics
https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/research-and-publications/quick-facts/Sexual_Abuse_FY21.pdf
https://www.humboldt.edu/supporting-survivors/educational-resources/statistics
"You are looking at the incorrect statistics. And you are looking at them wrong. You are seeing what you want to see and avoiding what's uncomfortable for you.
You remind me of a child who sticks their fingers in their ears yelling LALALA because they don't like what the adult is saying. "
You realize this is you, right?
What you're not getting is that your beloved *feminism* and it's political integration with the *authorities* is why your special pleading for women doesn't work.
And, its true that if some *man* killed a woman I cared about I would want to hurt that *man*.
It is also true that if some *woman* hurt some *man* I cared about, I would want to hurt that *woman*.
But in the first case, you'd probably say I didn't do enough soon enough.
However, in the second case, you'd say I was a misogynist.
Your entire ideology is dedicated to prioritizing the value of women over men. You don't care if men are injured doing work women won't do. You don't care that men have been marginalized from education and higher employment.
You just want what you want and you don't care if it hurts men.
Feminists want to leverage unfortunate situations into totalitarian control of society. Basically, a inverted 'Handmaid's Tale'.
Why should men go along with this?
You're the enemy now, everything you say will be treated as propaganda.
I think de centering is so important but arent we still giving up power if we are actively hating if u get my drift
Please read the comments from men in this comments section and reconsider if you really want to throw this entire agenda a bone or agree in any shape or form with this post and the message/vibe it spreads 💕
What's wrong with men defending themselves? You're a good example of the anti-male culture that borders on exterminationist. Enjoy your 'world without men'.
HONEY I NEVER SAID I WANT A "WORLD WITHOUT MEN" - again - you are INVENTING sh*t and putting words in my mouth; again, you sound like a child sticking their fingers in their ears screaming LALALA because they don't like what they adult is saying - i never have ever in my entire life (especially not to you in this conversation) said i "want a world without men" what in the manifesto insanity are you TALKING about. At this point i can only assume you are trolling and just hoping to get a rise out of people whose views differ from you. If that is one of your goals in life- to be a troll- how utterly fcking sad for you. My goals in life are to learn and grow every day, to marvel at nature, to eat delicious foods, to propagate plants, to be a great friend, wife, daughter and person, to read books, to travel.... so many things that don't involve being a small minded, unoriginal hater.
I pray & hope you reach rock bottom soon so you can only go up. I hope you learn empathy, humility, argumentation, & i hope you grow. Peace bruhbruh. (If you simply respond with some bullsht like "ur the enemy you hate men u want all men to die" then you 100% have a tiny impotent penis and thats that. Gooooooobyyyyyyyeeeee🫠🤘
You do go on. And, of course, you have to insult my penis-size in order to try to shame a man into submitting to your temper-tantrum *because you're incapable of making a sound argument* supporting your position.
Feminism is the enemy of men. Especially White men.
As more men realize this, 'feminism' is going to find itself swept into the dustbin of history.
You're the enemy, now.
I wonder why what women wanted in the first movement-Women suffrage “votes for women, (without having to work or own property) and chastity for men (before marriage and not with minors or prostitutes), is almost the polar opposite of what women wanted in second wave feminism.
They are commonly painted as prudes but they also wanted temperance in order for the man to be fit to perform his husbandly duty to his wife.
Women refused to continue working after WW2 and only wanted to be mothers - hence baby boom! It was stopped by the introduction of the pill and campaigns developed by Edward Bernays “torches of freedom”. Second wave feminism was a documented government campaign to get women back into the workforce after the war. There was no organic movement for contraception, let alone abortion, no desire for casual sex or to work full time.
We have been manipulated to want these things that don’t make us happy. There is no patriarchy, just human society.
I'm pretty sure women did not "refuse to continue working" after WWII. They were fired en masse when soldiers returned, who either were given their previous jobs back, or were hired instead of women because of the prevailing "men must be the providers and breadwinners" philosophy. Working women were also habitually fired when they married or became pregnant. The baby boom was a logical consequence of women being forced back into the home. You really need to read a bit more about the lives of 1950s housewives and the rates of depression among women unhappy about being pushed back into a subservient role after having been independent productive money earning women.
No. Women were doing blue collar factory work. They were happy to let the men do that kind of work and have lots of baby-producing sex. It's feminists who think Women who focus on children and marriage as 'low status', not traditional men.
You clearly know little about women, even less about feminism, but claim to know what women think or want, and you reach conclusions based on non-existent data which you then spout as facts. Typical.
I've dealt with all kinds of women all my life. 'Data' produced by politicized 'studies' are just certified lies. We all believe what we want to believe. But some folks want to demand that everyone believe *only* 'authorized' beliefs. You know, authoritarians.
The Academy has destroyed its credibility by taking sides and attempting to export their culture of authoritarian sensitivity to the rest of society.
You're the enemy and everything you say is understood in that context.
Your pretensions to intellectual superiority are neither convincing nor amusing.
You're delulu but have a nice day.
Let's do a gender swap. Imagine that you lived in a society where men were disadvantaged. You take pity on them, and do what you can to visit men in prison, help homeless men, etc. etc. But these men have no words of gratitude, only righteous anger -- anger they say is an "inevitable consequence and a very rational reaction to their oppression". How would that make you feel about your efforts to help?
Western society is very gender-equal by global standards and by historical standards, yet Western women are remarkably upset, and getting angrier every year. Can you see why Western men are starting to wonder whether Western women might just be impossible to please?
But let's take it even further: Is it really fair for women of this generation to take their anger out on the men of this generation for something the men of last generation did to the women of last generation?
Imagine that we are brother and sister. Our mother abuses our father, and as a man, this makes me angry. Would I have a right to take it out on you, my sister, in order to even the score?
You really just typed a bunch of words, hit 'send' and thought "Nailed it!", huh?
Please read books and peer-reviewed articles on argumentation, debate, gendered violence, hegemonic masculinity, sociology of gender, and criminology - and then we can have an actual conversation. Until then... I bid you good day.
So, you can't actually defend your position, then? You're an ideologue with a bunch of clapping seals hooting 'You go girl'.
'Studies' departments and the biased 'studies' they produce is one of the key reasons *all* academic production is treated with disdain by anyone not on academia.
Ok mr hamburger
Right? He really thought he did something there 😂
Exactly my thoughts. Thank you, Kelly 🙏🏻
Very well said. So true.
Obviously you're ignorant of crime statistics. Most murders are committed by someone the victim knows. Women are not special in this regard.
The percentage of females murdered by an intimate partner was 5 times higher than for males.
Of the estimated 4,970 female victims of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter in 2021, data reported by law enforcement agencies indicate that 34% were killed by an intimate partner. By comparison, about 6% of the 17,970 males murdered that year were victims of intimate partner homicide.
https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offender-relationship-2021
What makes you think every 'intimate partner' is a male?
Notice that I never said the word "every"- you did.
Anyway. 🤧 Here are some more actual statistics that exist:
Of all female homicides in 2018, 92% of victims were killed by a MAN they knew, and 63% were killed by current husbands, boyfriends, or ex-husbands.
In 2022, there were 15,094 murderers in the United States who were MALE, in comparison to 2,107 who were female.
Male violence is a global problem. Hegemonic masculinity kills & destroys. These are also factual statements.
Sources:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/251886/murder-offenders-in-the-us-by-gender/
https://sanctuaryforfamilies.org/femicide-epidemic/
https://www.unwomen.org/en/news-stories/feature-story/2022/11/five-essential-facts-to-know-about-femicide
Notice where this data is coming from - various, credible sources, including an organization dedicated to helping families.
Please do better. You are being emotional and reactive, and actively choosing to be part of the problem rather than listening and educating yourself.
You used ‘intimate partner’ without modification in a diatribe about ‘male violence’. It’s your fault you didn’t properly specify whether you meant that ‘intimate partner’ referred to all men or lesbians or both.
BTW, I’ve seen statistics that appear to show that lesbian relationships have a much higher incidence of domestic violence than any other kind of ‘intimate partnership’.
Just sayin’
Since your 'solution' is 'masculinity' on feminist terms and no other, I prefer to be part of the problem. Women's violence is a global problem. You just don't see female violence as 'violence'.
And there are no credible sources for demographic information anywhere in the world.
They're all compromised by political agendas like feminism and anti-Whiteness.
To be honest there is no reason to hate each other.
We pretend that the majority of men rape or kill women. But that’s a negligible percentage and most women also don’t marry you fuck the carpenter and throw you out of your house you end up needing to pay despite not living in it
No one pretends the majority of men rape or kill women. No one is pretending here. This isn't make believe. This isn't a game. This is people's lives.
First hand accounts + police reports + governmental agencies' data will show you that hegemonic masculinity is harmful and violent to all genders.
More so, 96-99% of rape perpetrators are men.
One out of every three women are raped. 91% of rape victims are female. 9% are male. And again - of those 9% of men being raped, around 98% of rapists are also men. Women die of domestic violence 5x more often than men.
Just a handful of actual statistics that cant be argued with no matter how much people try to.
Gendered violence statistics can overwhelmingly point to men hating women. We don't all "hate each other" as you've so eloquently put. Also WILD that in your example of hate you essentially compare your wife cheating on you with the carpenter to RAPE AND MURDER. 😳
Loss is loss. Heartbreak sucks. I am not saying being cheated on does not suck. I am not saying its cool to cheat or lie. But sir. It is not the same as RAPING someone or being RAPED. Certainly not comparable to murder!?
I think your energy would be much better spent trying to educate yourself and be an ally, and just a kind person.
✌️
This is hilarious in fact. I think you are the bigot here. I try to advocate understanding towards each other but you need to blast of your crap of me comparing rape with infidelity. Where did I say those are equally bad things but go on. Because of people like you the democrats keep loosing. Good thing I don’t live in the US
Also maybe maybe you should also know that men kill each other far more frequently then they kill women, but deriving from the fact that some men kill women that men hate women is a bit of a stretch. Do men hate men too now? After all they kill each other more frequently. Like you pop feminist lack any amount of self criticism towards the things you people made up. Like be open for other opinions. Don’t just assume shit
Further it’s impossible to give an example of equally bad things. Men can simply do more harm.
So what does that mean can’t I compare the holocaust with the attack on Ukraine. Or apples with oranges. What’s your point yes I compare cheating with rape, maybe I will soon compare chocolate ice with biscuits. I think your energy would be better spend on being genuine and don’t assume that I am an idiot just because I gave two examples of bad behavior
I don’t know the statistics but as far I didn’t miss anything nothing you said contradicts what I said. Your first paragraphs truth value depends on what hegemonic masculinity means for you.
If 33% of women are raped this doesn’t mean that the equal amount of men are rapists. It’s far more likely that a few serial rapists rape their way through life. First it depends on which country you are talking about not all countries have the same amount of rapists or victims, second the facts you state don’t contradict anything I said.
There are so many examples of societies where women have far less rights and pirlvedges than men, and yet the men and women seem to get along fine in those places.
No you cannot kill the fetus. Thats just how its going to be going forwards, get fucked (but use protection lmao).
Boot on your neck? Seriously? Please go touch grass.
We try!
Here's one fun study of women who go out running amd hiking -
A study by Dr. Miles and Professor Broad from The University of Manchester found women surveyed in Greater Manchester and Merseyside suffered from threats, verbal abuse, being flashed at, physical and sexual assaults, and having objects thrown at them while out running.
Of the survey respondents, 68% said they had experienced some form of abusive behavior. The most common type was verbal abuse, with 58% of the women who responded reporting that they had experienced this. However, a substantial number of women also said they had been followed while out running (19%), flashed at (7%), or received other types including abuse from men in vehicles (13%). Thirteen women said they had been physically assaulted while out running, and seven women had been sexually assaulted.
Despite the high prevalence of abuse, 95% of women respondents who said they have experienced it said they did not report it to the police. Of those who did report it, most indicated there was some follow up and support but no substantial outcome, often because the perpetrator could not be identified.
For the women who said they did not report abuse to the police, a variety of reasons were given including the abuse of women in public being so normalized that experiences are perceived as trivial and part of everyday life, not judging incidents to be criminal offenses, not wanting to waste police time, and doubts over whether the police would be interested or take their report seriously.
Perhaps not surprisingly given their experiences and perceptions, 82% of respondents said that they worried about their personal safety while out running.
Over the past 20 years, a growing body of research has indicated an increase in SHSA across a wide array of sports and athletic activities (Ayala et al. 2021; Fasting 2016; Gündüz et al. 2008; Messner 2002; Rintaugu et al. 2014). As the prevalence of SHSA across various sports has increased, so has the number of incidents in the running community. When several U.S. women runners were victims of homicide in 2016, fear and anger sparked throughout the community, prompting Runner’s World (Hamilton 2017) to survey runners’ experiences and responses to SHSA. Of the 4670 respondents, 43% of women reported being harassed while running, which increased to 50% for those between 30 and 35 years old and to 58% for women under 30.
Only FOUR PERCENT OF MEN also reported being catcalled, stalked, or sexually assaulted while running.
These statistics also don't say what gender was doing the stalking/catcalling to the male runners, but I'd take a gander to say it was mostly men.
Kindly READ SOME BOOKS AND TAKE YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR TOXIC ARSE.
Thank you for stating the obvious. What's most frustrating about this to me is that a man even gesturing to this dynamic among women online (read: most "normie" spaces on the internet/social media) usually results in severe backlash. You can't acknowledge the reductive statements as reductive, the contempt as contempt, or the double standards as double standards without being thoroughly excoriated for daring to criticize the behavior of women.
Yeah, if there's one thing males have always been afraid of, both modernly and historically, it's criticizing the behavior of women.
It's just so hard to do, hard to find in media, and so verboten.
Tell the Taliban about your amazing ideas.
Proving the point perhaps?
Yes, proving the point by pointing that not being able to get laid doesn't mean that women aren't criticized.
This is why men shouldn't be allowed to vote. You're all crazy and delusional.
You’re proving his point exactly. Outside of the obviously dysfunctional manosphere there’s not much room to talk about this kind of serious issue, because many people are so sensitive to the idea of criticizing women in this way that it gets shut down. Both sexes have problems with how they view the other. That one has a small minority that vehemently hates/is envious of women does not let the other side, where low level misandry is commonplace, off the hook.
LOL OH REALLY
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. You think because you can't get Tinder matches that everyone is afraid to criticize women.
You don't see how women are discussed in the media, by men in general, by men historically because it doesn't affect you and as a male you do not have the capability to engage in self-awareness.
Just because nobody wants to fuck you doesn't mean women don't get treated like shit, both historically and globally.
It's not both sides. Stop telling yourself that because you can't get a date.
And if your best comeback BUT IT'S NOT ALL THOUGH, then thanks for proving my point. You morons can't argue to save your life.
Go tell your amazing ideas to the Taliban, to women in prisons who are forced to share cells with male rapists (because when a man says he "feels like" he's a woman, the whole world has to listen!), and women forced to carry dead fetuses in Texas. Like there aren't multiple podcasts literally dedicated to humiliating women by men who can't get laid so they can feel better about themselves. It's non-stop, in the media, everywhere.
Just shut up. You know nothing.
BTW, you forgot to call him an incel
Quit womansplaining.
Thank you for providing an example so quickly…
^person with disgusting views on trans people, pay them no mind
Right on queue...
^person with disgusting views on trans people, pay them no mind
It’s deranged.
The casual, unembarrassed contempt for men that many women, particularly younger ones, give voice to is extraordinarily annoying and obnoxious. If I were a young man, I would be strongly repulsed by it.
Completely agree. Nowadays if you’re younger and don’t hate men you’re titled a “pick me” especially for having male friends. Its become trendy to hate men, but when a man hates a woman, its suddenly a horrible thing to do? Of course it is, but what do you expect when some women are so open and proud about their hatred of the other sex. That behavior attracts exactly what it puts out. It’s sexism either way. Its immaturity and ignorance either way. Sincerely, a woman who is fed up with people normalizing hate.
But the thing is...
men deserve it.
And they'll admit it when pressed.
Half the population of the planet deserves to be held in contempt. Sure. Got it.
This is vicious, deranged, eliminationist thinking.
Thanks for proving the point.
Men never have a problem with this when they can get away with treating women like this.
This is karma. If men can dish out, now it's time to take it. It's been earned.
Tell the Taliban about your wonderful ideas. I'm sure they'll love it.
lol you are a trans hating psycho, opinion thoroughly dismissed
There's no such thing as "trans."
I'm talking about men.
Anyone who defends men in wigs playing women's sports should be dismissed, not a normal person who says that men aren't women.
Go play video games.
You are a hateful person lol
The fact that someone like you unironically exists irl brings me so much joy, I would love to meet you and see how deranged you act in a public setting
Really?? Like literally ALL men?
To be honest there is no reason to hate each other.
We pretend that the majority of men rape or kill women. But that’s a negligible percentage and most women also don’t marry you fuck the carpenter and throw you out of your house you end up needing to pay despite not living in it
Men had no problem when they could get away with treating ALL women like shit for centuries. You guys get a little taste of your own medicine, for a short while, and you all fall apart.
Pathetic.
Go tell the Taliban about your amazing ideas. You people are so fucking stupid it's exhausting. After everything, the best you can come up with is BUT NOT ALL MEN RAPE! The bar is on the floor. Thanks for proving my point.
Oh but women do that towards each other too. Should we exterminate each other because of the past
Women aren't raping and murdering each other by the thousands.
Go tell the Taliban about your amazing ideas.
And if you're a Turk who chooses to live in Germany that says a lot. Go back to where you came from, colonizer.
Your ancestors colonized people but I wouldn’t call you colonizer hhhhhh
If men are so bad go and live in the woods don’t use our inventions hhhhhhhhh. No antibiotics got you. I can use all female inventions after all I like women hhhhhhhh
That’s disingenuous it’s not a that common occurrence to rape and murder like less than 1% of people do that. Why can’t you admit that some men invented vaccines and saved millions of women. And I know sexist societies and thinking that only men treat women bad is very delusional.
Super racist why am I a colonizer I am born here. People should be judged by their actions. Judging from your actions I am a far mor civil person
Trans hating psycho ^
Ignore this person
I don't hate "trans." It doesn't exist. I hate men. Big difference.
⚠️ALERT⚠️
DO NOT TAKE THIS PERSON SERIOUSLY
THEY ARE A BIGOT
soy bitch men deserve it*
There, I fixed it for you.
:)
I am starting to appreciate her pure hate. If I learned she was like this celibate tech Chinese misandrist that did IVF to not have any contact with men and not have a male baby, I would have to tip my hat to her.
Y'all met TERF Vibes yet? Another amazing woman.
The reason this is:
Feminist propaganda
Hookup culture creates an environment where most women hook up with some of the worst men society has to offer at least once. The tall, handsome, or successful men, but emotionally cold and immature and sociopathic men are what most women think of when they think of “men” because they do not think of unattractive men as “men” since they don't have any sexual contact with them.
I wonder how much of this is downstream from hookup culture and the idea that all women can approach sex as casually as men. If women are harmed, emotionally or physically, by casual sex, that could naturally lead to a level of distaste for men. The Case Against the Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry has some thought-provoking points on this subject that would be relevant to the discussion (though some of her conclusions fall short).
Oh yeah, that book is fantastic. I think she nailed it, and you're right about hookup culture being part of the problem. Notice that in my description of how "I love men," I specify that I especially love those with whom I have a platonic relationship. I keep the ones wanting sex at arm's length. I think if everyone ditched hookup culture and focused on just having friends of whatever gender, there'd be more happiness and less hate.
I think if everyone focused much more on having friends of whatever gender, hook-ups would be less of a minefield and a lot more fun ❤️
Maybe? I guess it depends on the people. Personally, my experiences with hookups are “meh” at best, and destroy a good friendship at worst.
You’re a male aren’t you?
Nope!
To me, it doesn't matter whether The Sexual Revolution is good or bad.
It just is, and good luck doing anything to change it. We just have to learn to live with it.
I think the women "disliking men" thing is a running joke. In my experience, women who talk like that are having plenty of sex with men. If you are a man, and you hear women talking like that, and you take it seriously / get offended, you are failing an EQ test.
That being said, it's probably not good for your psyche to casually dislike the opposite sex. Even if you are a lesbian, you will still have to be friends with your brother-in-law, etc.
>I think the women "disliking men" thing is a running joke. In my experience, women who talk like that are having plenty of sex with men. If you are a man, and you hear women talking like that, and you take it seriously / get offended, you are failing an EQ test.
Are you? Or are you just reacting like a human would to a situation in which dehumanizing language is normalized?
If that kind of language was used about women you'd be pitching a fit.
This is exactly what I am talking about. "Reacting like a human to dehumanizing language" buddy, men used to go to war.
Men still do go to war. What's your point? That's you think that men should just stop being pussies and accept they deserve to be treated like shit?
Thank you for proving my point
You didn't make a point.
You didn't address any of my questions. You don't have a point.
Asking men to submit to being constantly told they're inferior and unwanted, and then treat the people using this language to them well, is asking men to be psychologically unhealthy. You'd never ask this of women or any other group.
i think you’re exactly right, i’ve had this conversation with my boy friend and a lot of my guy friends.
i hear these statements all the time from girls sitting next to their boyfriend or out with guy friends. it’s a litmus test or a dare- prove you’re good, submit to this mild degradation as a small tax for all that women have to go through. and i think they should. they guys who get fussy when they hear a casual “i hate men” typically suck.
but words hurt people, it sucks to hear that you’re hated and a monster all the time, especially when you’re young. i don’t make i hate men statements anymore (i’m a feminist, certainly not a male apologist, and have been wronged terribly by many men). i know and love some really awesome guys. and i’ve talked to them about it, they get it, it’s cool, but it does hurt them. and these are adults, middle schoolers don’t have the emotional maturity to understand how two things can be true at once or how it’s not really about them.
it is a tricky issue though, both this and the male loneliness thing, because they are real issues effecting real people we love and have compassion for, but asking women to baby men as a solution is absurd.
women’s hatred of men comes from lived experience and fear. fear of violence, yes, but for me all the more common than that is not being seen as a full person by so many of the people around you. people you want to date, people you want to befriend, people you work with or work under. not all men, yes, but the bad ones look the same and are totally intermixed with the good. who wants to roll the dice? always easy to be diagnostic and not prescriptive, who knows how to fix it. with gender based violence and the history of women’s oppression “everyone be nice and equal now you’re hurting the boys feelings” is not a solution.
if politically you’re interested in fighting for a better world you cant leave out ~50% of people, you have to bring them along or we’ll never get anywhere. and we have places to go.
> i hear these statements all the time from girls sitting next to their boyfriend or out with guy friends. it’s a litmus test or a dare- prove you’re good, submit to this mild degradation as a small tax for all that women have to go through.
Maybe Americans are different but if my girlfriend intentionally tried to degrade me to make me 'prove' I'm good knowing that it would hurt my feelings, I'd be INCREDIBLY sad. My girlfriend complains about men fairly frequently and I've pretty much always agreed, but she would literally never try to degrade me on purpose because she...cares about me? I've had female friends (hell, my current best friend is female) and I've never heard them say this around me either.
Additionally, why make your boyfriend 'prove' himself? Ideally you'd have done that before you started dating them. It's a horrible test anyhow. If you want to test whether someone sees you as a full person you should be looking for more insightful analysis than whether they got annoyed by a joke. It's almost a meme how many men pretend to be feminist in order to have sex with women: this is a terrible strategy!
I can understand women being misandrist as a form of venting or to cope with bad male behavior. But doing it purely to degrade your friends is miserable and emotionally abusive (not talking to you directly). This isn't a "babying men" issue, it's a "have basic human empathy" issue. Generally speaking, people SHOULD be nice and equal to not hurt others' feelings. It's not a man or woman thing, it's just the best way for our world to be remotely enjoyable.
agree with you, it’s a bad strategy born out of a toxic situation. i do want to clarify this is not my approach and never has been with my boyfriend or my guy friends, just a behavior i’ve noticed in others.
i’ve talked to a lot of my friends about words having meaning and being kinder in general, I’m not sure if it’s uniquely american or if i know terrible people or something but casual cruelty is not that uncommon. maybe “degrade” was too strong of a word but i do think it’s degrading to essentially tell someone you hate them to their face and expect them to smile and nod. i was just trying to say that the statement is disingenuous, clearly they don’t actually just hate men, so i think that the testing of the response is a big motivation for the behavior.
as you said, the solution is to be nice to each other, and to just see everyone as an individual person and treat them as such, but i think if the message is “girls please be nicer to the boys” that comes off babying vibes, at least to me.
if you’re talking to smart and rational people, for the most part, a lot of this is sort of a non-issue and everyone can speak kindly to each other, listen to each others perspectives and feelings, and say things they actually mean, but clearly this is just … not what’s going on.
almost every women has gone through a lot of pain that they wouldn’t have experienced if they were not a woman. rage is a pretty natural response and and i don’t know where woman should put it. it’s not the correct response but i cant overly judge anyone on a small (probably a little unconscious) misdirected hit back. i would say that everyone should stop posting that they hate each other and everyone honestly should log off. but that’s not gonna happen.
i’m sorry if my comment implied i thought that behavior i described is okay or that that’s how i think relationships should operate - it’s really not.
I agree with everything you said! I got far too mad in my initial reply, I think I accidentally thought you were cosigning the behavior described. I really do sympathize with women in this regard and I agree that we should try to not make it seem like women should baby men.
Imagine if the roles were reversed
Joe: "Women are crazy, they belong in the kitchen"
Jane: "Misogynist!"
Joe: *rolls eyes* "We shouldn't have to baby women this way. 'Everyone be nice and equal now you're hurting the women's feelings' -- that's not a solution."
The hypocrisy aggravates me, I confess. I just want people to take a consistent position.
Next you'll be saying "expecting men to be tough reinforces patriarchy; we need to create space for men to express their emotions"
Failing an Emotional Quality? test because I think it's retarded that a lot of females want to hate ALL men because they've been brianwashed by the " women have been slaves for millenia" bullshit?
OKAY! (eye roll)
Thank you for proving my point
LOL., only in your head.
Dont worry kid, You are still Mommy's Little Champion.
;)
The direct implication here is that high-EQ men think women are frivolous and unserious lol
People in general are unserious and having self confidence means being able to relax and take a joke at your own expense. Especially when all other evidence suggests they are joking
I don't think that actually liking someone is always a requirement for casual sex when people are into that, though.
I wasn't just talking about casual sex. But even for casual sex, these women are still finding men charming and funny and enjoyable to be around.
Not necessarily. Some of the things women ask you to do in the bedroom put you in the position of someone they hate, or someone cosplaying a rapist.
There are so many things women request, and continue to request after my demurrals that I have been uncomfortable with.
They don't need to like you to fuck you. You just need to slot into whatever fantasy box they created (or had created for them) in their heads.
This has never happened to me and I refuse to believe this is a common experience. The median woman is not inviting men they dislike back to their house to engage in rape fantasy
At some point you will have to confront the reality that you are neither the template of human existence, nor is everyone sharing your experience.
Might as well start now.
Refusing to believe something doesn't make it any less true.
And by admitting to being the kind of person who utilizes this strategy, you are also admitting to being the kind of person who intentionally deludes themselves.
I don't know that living in denial is a useful, or mature, strategy for life.
Real disdain between the sexes is a serious problem.
The reason man-hating by women isn't as big a deal in our society as the reverse is that nobody takes women themselves seriously when they spout off about such things. She'll likely decide she likes men tomorrow if it suits her fancy. Not saying it's ok for women to be this way, since real damage can be and is done from their whimsy, whether they like it or not.
But men expressing their disdain for women, on the other hand, are taken seriously. Sensing the seriousness of these men, and the problems it poses for human continuity, to say nothing of flourishing, it is recognized as a real problem, and confronted as such.
It's also, I suspect, the reason women voicing their dislike of men is so ubiquitous and normalized. There are no consequences for their doing so, certainly no serious bad feedback. They feel quite free to complain about men because it feels good to do so, at least in the moment, and no one is likely to call them out on it.
This post and the previous post are all about the consequences of the contempt modern popular culture has for men.
The entirely foreseeable result of this contempt is the disengagement of young men in the dating market.
Yah. Women saying they hate men is interpreted as frustration or disappointment. The expectation is that it will pass.
Men don't use words to express frustration or disappointment. So men saying that they hate women is interpreted as expressing the result of lengthy deliberations, not in-the-moment emotions. That's why it's taken seriously.
Re the "war of the sexes", the opposite of love is not hate but indifference. It will be time to worry when the fashion, cosmetics, and diet industries crash and burn. Or when sex robots go completely mainstream, and men self-segregate into male-coded jobs like construction or mining.
Ha, no. Sex segregation is actually the antidote. I’m 50. The rot began in the 90s but girls listened to Hole and boys Nirvana. We got drunk and boys were still allowed to be boys and if they copped a feel you wouldn’t call the police or call it abuse. When Julian Assange got arrested for rape (sex with sleeping person) we all thought it was outrageous because is normal Australian sex. We want to be woken up that way. The reason why men v women, women v men is this: the expectation that we are the same. We’re not. And understanding that allows for great sex and endless compassion for our different, often conflicting needs.
A friend of mine told me an overly long, convoluted, meandering tale that when distilled translated into: "I'm horny now, but I don't want to do it yet. I want to fall asleep and then be awoken by what feels like your unrestrainable desire at some point between midnight and dawn tomorrow morning."
😂
Ok sweetheart.
Sweet dreams. 🤗
In my bubble this seems like a pareto distribution problem; (maybe?) 20% of the population making 80% of the noise? I am around teens and young adults a lot, and they all seem to like each other fine. I accept that the "reality" seems different on "some" and youtube (substack even); but IRL around my parts, it seems to only apply to certain groups of female university students (not liking men) and male gamers (not liking/even despising women in a slightly autistic way).
There's a distribution of male personality characteristics and female, with lots of overlap in these curves, but at the extreme ends on either side, there's virtually no overlap. What all this is about is the tail end of both distributions hating each other because 1. They truly have nothing in common and no shared motivations, feelings, interests, or ability to comprehend each other, but 2. Still wanting to get together to mate, and 3. Now being exposed to exactly how the other really thinks, because it's all out there on the internet now and exposed for the other to see, while this type of person used to be cordoned off into male or female centric spaces where they didn't hear each other.
There are plenty of people in the overlapping part of the bell curves who get along just fine and who are quite happy together and having a fine and dandy time. In a sense, for them things may have never been better. The people on the tail ends have a problem though. They truly do not like each other, at all, and only view each other for instrumental purposes. Therefore they simply spend all their time thinking about how to dominate and/or weaken the other side in order to be able to take ownership of and control them, because they really just want to extract something from them, they don't enjoy them as people in their own right. These are the people making all the noise and who are trying to drag everyone down with them in their misery.
They're also highly threatened by the people in the overlap. Those people have no trouble with relationships and are typically much more attractive relationship partners. They view them as intersexual competition and therefore spend just as much time trying to shame, denigrate, and lower the status of the overlap people as they do hating on the opposite sex. Very female-strong personality tail type women will call overlap women pick mes who are traitors to their gender. Very male-strong personality tail type men will call overlap men soyboys and simps and cucks. These are blatant attempts to try to neutralize intersexual competition by lowering the status of the most romantically successful, so that they can continue on waging war against the opposite sex.
First of all, what an honor to get a reply from you, Kryptogal (Kate, if you like), cool! I appreciate both the reply and your writing! I believe you are absolutely right. They; "the people making all the noise and who are trying to drag everyone down with them in their misery", are both verbose and industrious, so they do take up a lot of space-
Well, thank you! And I hope you forgive that my phone auto-corrected all my instances of intrasexual to intersexual. :/
These verbose and industrious angry people online really are a problem though, and not just for each other but for all of us. Because it's easy to see too much of that stuff and start thinking they are representative of the whole, or more common than they seem. I will admit that if I ever make the terrible mistake of going on Twitter, I can easily come away feeling like I hate men, because of how vitriolic they are there. This despite the fact that literally no man in real life has ever behaved in that manner or expressed such thoughts/feelings, and I have no reason at all to hate men based on my daily dealings with them in life. It's purely an online-only phenomenon. I'm not on Tik Tok, but maybe I'd think the same of women if I was. And this also applies to lots of other dimensions of polarization too (political, age-based, etc). Everyone has a tendency to dismiss and/or forgive extremes and bad behavior on their own "side", because they don't view it as representative, but people rarely grant that much grace to others.
I agree with 99% of this post, because the the 1% is there are indeed soyboy simp cucks who, you guessed it:
are not part of the overlap people, because if they weren't, they would be in the "overlap" group OR attempting to transition into the "overlap" group.
Edit: mistyped & repeat words.
> Unlike the Manosphere, this world of women who dislike men isn’t propped up by many notable female figures whose claim to fame is touting some sort of pro-women ideology. I instead get the sense that it is propped up largely by everyday people, run-of-the-mill girls who see themselves as part of the norm
I'll push back on the idea that there are not women propping up this pro-woman ideology. Arguably, do female pop stars not fulfill the same role as the manosphere influencers? Some examples:
- Sabrina Carpenter's "Please Please Please" is about how the guy she's seeing is embarrassing and she doesn't want to be seen in public with him
- Olivia Rodrigo's "Vampire" is about how the guy she used to date is a sociopath
- Miley Cyrus's "Flowers" is about how she can be independent
- Ariana Grande's "thank u, next" is also about how she can be independent
- Haven't listened to it, but Beyonce's "Lemonade" album is about Jay-Z's infidelity
- Taylor Swift has built an entire career on writing songs about her relationships with men and how they hurt her
It's not as explicit as the manosphere influencers (except for Sabrina Carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo, who are pretty explicit in what they are saying) but I'd argue these women serve the same function as memetic superspreaders of these ideas
Notice how all of your examples are of singers. Why are there no prominent female versions of Andrew Tate? What is the female version of PUAs? The closest I can think of are "femininity coaches," (which is really just diluted and repackaged sex worker tactics) and even they aren't necessarily misandrist.
“Notice how all of your examples are of singers”
I would hope they are all singers, that was my thesis!
I understand. I don't think the singers have that same level of influence as manosphere guys (as someone who's been in manosphere spaces for a long time)
“I don't think the singers have that same level of influence as manosphere guys”
I would be interested in hearing how you reached that conclusion and how you are quantifying influence here.
Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande, and Miley Cyrus have an order of magnitude more followers on social media than any manosphere influencer.
Andrew Tate, as an example, has been banned from the Meta family of social networks, TikTok, and YouTube. He has 10.1M followers on X/Twitter.
Taylor Swift, by contrast, has not been banned from any social platform. She has 95M followers on Twitter, 283M on Instagram, 33M on TikTok, 92M monthly listeners on Spotify, and 80M followers on Facebook. Even eliminating people following her on multiple platforms, that’s still an audience of a couple hundred million vs Andrew Tate’s 10M. You could pull similar numbers for Beyoncé, Ariana Grande, and Miley Cyrus. Sabrina Carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo aren’t quite there yet but they each have about 40M on insta so I’d say they are still ahead of any manosphere influencer (closest seems to be Dan Bilzerian at 31.5M).
I got exposed to masculinity guru content like a decade ago, and the community at the time had “Fight Club” rules where you didn’t talk about it in public. It’s incredibly niche compared to these pop stars, who have audiences in the hundreds of millions.
I’m struggling to see how you can make a good faith argument that the manosphere is more influential than pop music
I'm referring to influence in the sense of, most of these women hear those songs and may enjoy it, but it's more of a passive enjoyment (I'm fully aware that there are stans). Whereas in the manosphere, there is a bit of an active component there. These singers are not selling courses or books on how to "level up." They're entertainers. These men are positioning themselves as educators/leaders/gurus - that's the difference.
That's a ridiculous argument. Tate might reach 5 million men. The women singers reach hundreds of million women
I would add.
-Ashnikko's "Stupid" is a rad fem tirade that went viral (100M) with imagery about killing men and dehumanising lyrics. Far more extreme than even the darkest black pillers.
-Kimbra's "Settle down" Catastrophising fears about being replaced and abandoned.
I don't even consider their ideology pro woman. More fearful and anti-life.
It's true. The manosphere has a tiny insignificant influence compared to music. More a vocalization of a emergent reaction in men than something steering things.
All of these women have songs about being in love. Beyoncé’s album ended with her forgiving her husband and celebrating their love. You’re not seriously comparing break-up songs to human sex trafficking…right?
Actually, I am! You’ve seen right through me
Do men not sing break-up songs? Seems like that would be the fair comparison here.
That’s a much better criticism of my initial comment, thank you.
Male pop stars do write break up songs. However, I’d argue that predominantly their audiences are women. Justin Bieber, Charlie Puth, Shawn Mendes, Harry Styles, Justin Timberlake, John Mayer, and so on all have audiences of mostly women. In terms of influence with men, I’d say all of these artists fall short of a true comparison here.
The best comparison to my initial comment I can think of is Drake (in terms of popularity with men, influence, social media following, etc.). I’d argue though that Drake is predominantly known for his public feuding with other rappers, more so than having a particular view of women. But even in his most famous “break up” song (Marvin’s Room), the lyrics are him criticizing the dude his ex is with and saying fuck that guy, rather than demonize his ex directly like most female pop stars would.
this made me snort LMAO i’m sorry
I'm am old guy who grew up in the 70s and 80s and remember very well hearing women complain about men, and also hearing men complain about women (though to be fair, the latter was much less common even then). However, something has definitely changed. There seems to be a significant percentage of women (at least online) who have really taken on board the idea that half of the world's population is just wandering around casually beating and raping the other half, which is insane to me. Couple that with academics and advocacy groups that have a clear benefit in exaggerating any ACTUAL problems and things get even messier. Likewise, there seems to be a huge portion of men who think that every woman is just looking for an opportunity to trick them into a lawsuit, or hoping to marry them so they can eventually divorce them and "take half their stuff," which again seems crazy to me.
As a father of three kids, two of whom are girls, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this. At the risk of being accused of mansplaining I'll tell women the exact same thing I tell my brothers and male friends: yes, there are bad people out there. Yes, it sucks to be hurt, physically, emotionally, financially. But when you start wanting to write off half the world's population remember 2 things:
first, because we only date the opposite sex, then by default the only people who can REALLY hurt us are going to be the opposite sex. So it is really easy (but totally unfair) to assume everyone of the opposite sex will hurt you.
Second, the fact that your ex did <insert bad thing here> has LITERALLY NOTHING TO DO with any other person out there. This is akin to saying, my first landlord was a Filipino and screwed me over on my security deposit, so now I think that all Filipinos are untrustworthy.
This is not new. I am 71. My mom and her gf neighbors sat around and ragged on their husbands for hours in coffee fueled complaint fests. This was 1960. But it was sort of like the slaves back in their cabins bitching about their masters. That said, I actually like men and I have been married for 40 years to a good one. His mom and sisters deserve some credit.
So it might be just how social dynamics between the sexes have always been throughout human history which is quite depressing to think about but I’m not sure. What’s your take on it?
I think it speaks to women's power now. No one cared about the grumbling of women in 1960. They were far enough down the hierarchy to ignore.
I wonder how ‘Not New’ this is, I’ve read stuff about our ancestral environment/hunter-gatherer ancestors and the women rag on the men there too.
The thing is I think, if you’re heterosexual, you have to keep your resentment towards the opposite sex low if you actually want to be successful. You just can’t be a man-hater or woman-hater and be in a relationship like that at the same time. Ofc you can’t rid yourself of some bile, but that shouldn’t be enough for you to make broad, damning generalizations
Yes, but the weird thing is that I see SO MUCH LESS hate in queer and asexual spaces. I never hear lesbians talking about how they hate men, ever. Usually, they have a lot of gay male friends. Same with aces; they tend to hate sexually aggressive behavior but don't turn it into more general misandry. Why is it that straights seem to hate each other more?
Academic lesbian college professors like Sally Miller Gearhart and Mary Daly were the source of a lot of institutional misandry that you see in the Anglosphere today. The former actually gave a talk about reducing the population of men to 10% of the world population; the title should be familiar - The Future-if there is one-is Female. Daly agreed and called it a "necessary decontamination of the Earth."
There are others. This hatred is not limited to heterosexuals.
I'm in plenty of queer spaces that seem to express their disdain for (cishet) men to the point where I've ended up running back to the straights lol
I'm wondering how much this is a regional thing, because you're describing *exactly* the way I felt in NY in 2020/2021. But now, living in South Dakota, I'm Queen of the Queers lol. But gay culture here is what gay culture was in New York 20 years ago. So I know exactly what you're talking about, and I should probably communicate WAY more clearly about these things online because "queer", "liberal", etc means something different in South Dakota than in places like New York.
I can definitely see that. I'm currently in NYC
Oh god, I had almost forgotten how much they hate "cis" people there. I'm bi, and still got the "cishet" hate because I was dating a man lol. Ugh, what did I sign up for by taking a trip there next month?
They hate "cis" people but sure do spend a lot of time trying to emulate them (same with queer folks claiming they hate heteronormativity but still emulate them).
To be honest, I have had quite a few lesbian friends and they were very avid about hating men, and never wanted to hear about them or would get uncomfortable if I even mentioned a man. They are non-binary, but call themselves lesbians, just to clarify.
Lots of lesbians hate straight men. IDK what Anna Cole is talking about
This is partly because lesbians are great. I’ve always gotten along very well with lesbians and was practically raised by some very kind, wise gay women. I think it’d because they have no expectations about masculinity, either positive or negative, and treat men as individuals.
Right, it’s a segment of society where no one has to worry about rigid “traditional” roles as much. I think men need to be liberated from being shoehorned into specific roles and expectations just as much as women do.
Completely disagree. Firstly I’ve seen vicious lesbians DV is common in their relationships. They write articles bullying the butch lesbians for being “patriarchal” on here too.
And the problem is now that people who are suited for roles have to fight a system that pushes against them. No one’s shoehorned anything since the 70s. Expectations for anything have collapsed leaving people aimless and not knowing what the other party wants.
The lesbian DV issue that you’re referencing has been debunked several times...
Gay male Friends???? We are talking about cishet hate here friend. Of course they like gay males.
I guess this goes with my theory that "it's not men that people are hating on, it's a specific type of male sexual attention/energy." All the misandrist stuff I see online is 100% in the context of sex/dating, never in the context of just being friends or whatever.
I’m not sure it’s necessarily less media driven than the manosphere. Part of why the manosphere has a few big names is because it’s out of cultural power, so confined to a few specialty influencers.
But feminism is practically the default now. “Future is female”, rhetoric about the threat about men to women (even if it’s actually gone down in absolute terms, and has always been less than the threat from to men from men), or just generally portraying men as useless and ‘should be happy she’s around’ . passing comments in shows and celebrities add up, even if they’re not part of some campaign
i dont get either trend, im pro men and women and i also dont live in this world, i still know plenty of people liking and obsessing over the opposite sex. i think the best thing people should do is get off tiktok cuz theres a big world out there.
This post lacks so much nuance and conveniently leaves out the power dynamics of the last several centuries?? There is not a 'gender war'...there is a war on women and girls.
This write up is the equivalent of if i wrote an entire piece about "people of color saying they hate white people is so crazy/unfair/not helping", "its a race war" "leave white people alone" Like, tf?
White supremacy/white people uphold the power in the racial power dynamic. Men hold the power in the gender power dynamic. This is fact. This is how the human world has been for quite some time. About five thousand different statistics can confirm this.
Side note: All of these men in these comments and their unhinged and rude responses to women very much proves the point you're trying so desperately to negate with this post. Jesus this sh*t's exhausting.
I'm weird with this stuff... I hate dating and don't enjoy penetrative sex at all due to medical problems. I don't really want a boyfriend/husband (although I have loved what it does to society's perception of me when I'm in a relationship...). I don't want to be in a situation where I feel I'm supposed to be "putting out". However, I actually *love* men. My entire life, I've always had close platonic relationships with people of all genders. Some of my favorite people are men I'm platonically involved with and not romantically/sexually involved with. Attempts to make it anything but platonic would ruin it.
I wonder if women who are 100% heterosexual have more contempt/misandry going on because they can't take the pressures around sex, etc., out of the equation the way queers and aces can? I *never* get the sense in LGBTQ+ communities or in asexual groups that men and women hate each other; this seems to be a heterosexual dating problem.
There are even gay groups online that spoof this by asking, "Are the straights OK?" and then everyone talks about how "no, the straights are definitely not OK." Maybe heteros need to look at what queers and aces are doing that makes them not hate any one gender?
Ofc no one could not reasonably address everything about gender, GBSV and the “gender war” in this limited amount of word but dammit this was a good and refreshing read.