Thank you for stating the obvious. What's most frustrating about this to me is that a man even gesturing to this dynamic among women online (read: most "normie" spaces on the internet/social media) usually results in severe backlash. You can't acknowledge the reductive statements as reductive, the contempt as contempt, or the double standards as double standards without being thoroughly excoriated for daring to criticize the behavior of women.
You’re proving his point exactly. Outside of the obviously dysfunctional manosphere there’s not much room to talk about this kind of serious issue, because many people are so sensitive to the idea of criticizing women in this way that it gets shut down. Both sexes have problems with how they view the other. That one has a small minority that vehemently hates/is envious of women does not let the other side, where low level misandry is commonplace, off the hook.
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. You think because you can't get Tinder matches that everyone is afraid to criticize women.
You don't see how women are discussed in the media, by men in general, by men historically because it doesn't affect you and as a male you do not have the capability to engage in self-awareness.
Just because nobody wants to fuck you doesn't mean women don't get treated like shit, both historically and globally.
It's not both sides. Stop telling yourself that because you can't get a date.
And if your best comeback BUT IT'S NOT ALL THOUGH, then thanks for proving my point. You morons can't argue to save your life.
Go tell your amazing ideas to the Taliban, to women in prisons who are forced to share cells with male rapists (because when a man says he "feels like" he's a woman, the whole world has to listen!), and women forced to carry dead fetuses in Texas. Like there aren't multiple podcasts literally dedicated to humiliating women by men who can't get laid so they can feel better about themselves. It's non-stop, in the media, everywhere.
Is it a good thing that men and women seem to hate each other? No. But, to be blunt, it seems like the inevitable consequence in a patriarchal world that has oppressed women for centuries. I mean, this is the first generation where women have not faced massive economic and social backlash for decentering men and expressing their rage. Are we really surprised at women's reaction? Really? *Especially* considering the fall of Roe v Wade in the US? Women not liking men results in the girlies complaining online in sometimes angry, sometimes funny Tiktoks. Men not liking women results in a spike of men beating their pregnant girlfriends to death. What gender war? There is a war on women and femme-presenting people, but there is no war on men. There is female oppression and the very rational reaction to it.
"We are supposed to like each other." Yes, of course. But I don't expect any woman to apologize, to tone it down, or to swallow her anger at the boot on her neck. Remove the boot, and the culture will change.
I agree, why are we being told off for decentering men. If 2 out of 5 women yhat ate murdered are murdered by their partner then how is it bad that women are choosing not to settle down and have babies with the thing thats likely to kill her?
The casual, unembarrassed contempt for men that many women, particularly younger ones, give voice to is extraordinarily annoying and obnoxious. If I were a young man, I would be strongly repulsed by it.
I am starting to appreciate her pure hate. If I learned she was like this celibate tech Chinese misandrist that did IVF to not have any contact with men and not have a male baby, I would have to tip my hat to her.
The fact that someone like you unironically exists irl brings me so much joy, I would love to meet you and see how deranged you act in a public setting
Completely agree. Nowadays if you’re younger and don’t hate men you’re titled a “pick me” especially for having male friends. Its become trendy to hate men, but when a man hates a woman, its suddenly a horrible thing to do? Of course it is, but what do you expect when some women are so open and proud about their hatred of the other sex. That behavior attracts exactly what it puts out. It’s sexism either way. Its immaturity and ignorance either way. Sincerely, a woman who is fed up with people normalizing hate.
I wonder how much of this is downstream from hookup culture and the idea that all women can approach sex as casually as men. If women are harmed, emotionally or physically, by casual sex, that could naturally lead to a level of distaste for men. The Case Against the Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry has some thought-provoking points on this subject that would be relevant to the discussion (though some of her conclusions fall short).
Oh yeah, that book is fantastic. I think she nailed it, and you're right about hookup culture being part of the problem. Notice that in my description of how "I love men," I specify that I especially love those with whom I have a platonic relationship. I keep the ones wanting sex at arm's length. I think if everyone ditched hookup culture and focused on just having friends of whatever gender, there'd be more happiness and less hate.
I think the women "disliking men" thing is a running joke. In my experience, women who talk like that are having plenty of sex with men. If you are a man, and you hear women talking like that, and you take it seriously / get offended, you are failing an EQ test.
That being said, it's probably not good for your psyche to casually dislike the opposite sex. Even if you are a lesbian, you will still have to be friends with your brother-in-law, etc.
>I think the women "disliking men" thing is a running joke. In my experience, women who talk like that are having plenty of sex with men. If you are a man, and you hear women talking like that, and you take it seriously / get offended, you are failing an EQ test.
Are you? Or are you just reacting like a human would to a situation in which dehumanizing language is normalized?
If that kind of language was used about women you'd be pitching a fit.
Failing an Emotional Quality? test because I think it's retarded that a lot of females want to hate ALL men because they've been brianwashed by the " women have been slaves for millenia" bullshit?
Real disdain between the sexes is a serious problem.
The reason man-hating by women isn't as big a deal in our society as the reverse is that nobody takes women themselves seriously when they spout off about such things. She'll likely decide she likes men tomorrow if it suits her fancy. Not saying it's ok for women to be this way, since real damage can be and is done from their whimsy, whether they like it or not.
But men expressing their disdain for women, on the other hand, are taken seriously. Sensing the seriousness of these men, and the problems it poses for human continuity, to say nothing of flourishing, it is recognized as a real problem, and confronted as such.
It's also, I suspect, the reason women voicing their dislike of men is so ubiquitous and normalized. There are no consequences for their doing so, certainly no serious bad feedback. They feel quite free to complain about men because it feels good to do so, at least in the moment, and no one is likely to call them out on it.
Yah. Women saying they hate men is interpreted as frustration or disappointment. The expectation is that it will pass.
Men don't use words to express frustration or disappointment. So men saying that they hate women is interpreted as expressing the result of lengthy deliberations, not in-the-moment emotions. That's why it's taken seriously.
Re the "war of the sexes", the opposite of love is not hate but indifference. It will be time to worry when the fashion, cosmetics, and diet industries crash and burn. Or when sex robots go completely mainstream, and men self-segregate into male-coded jobs like construction or mining.
> Unlike the Manosphere, this world of women who dislike men isn’t propped up by many notable female figures whose claim to fame is touting some sort of pro-women ideology. I instead get the sense that it is propped up largely by everyday people, run-of-the-mill girls who see themselves as part of the norm
I'll push back on the idea that there are not women propping up this pro-woman ideology. Arguably, do female pop stars not fulfill the same role as the manosphere influencers? Some examples:
- Sabrina Carpenter's "Please Please Please" is about how the guy she's seeing is embarrassing and she doesn't want to be seen in public with him
- Olivia Rodrigo's "Vampire" is about how the guy she used to date is a sociopath
- Miley Cyrus's "Flowers" is about how she can be independent
- Ariana Grande's "thank u, next" is also about how she can be independent
- Haven't listened to it, but Beyonce's "Lemonade" album is about Jay-Z's infidelity
- Taylor Swift has built an entire career on writing songs about her relationships with men and how they hurt her
It's not as explicit as the manosphere influencers (except for Sabrina Carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo, who are pretty explicit in what they are saying) but I'd argue these women serve the same function as memetic superspreaders of these ideas
-Ashnikko's "Stupid" is a rad fem tirade that went viral (100M) with imagery about killing men and dehumanising lyrics. Far more extreme than even the darkest black pillers.
-Kimbra's "Settle down" Catastrophising fears about being replaced and abandoned.
I don't even consider their ideology pro woman. More fearful and anti-life.
It's true. The manosphere has a tiny insignificant influence compared to music. More a vocalization of a emergent reaction in men than something steering things.
Notice how all of your examples are of singers. Why are there no prominent female versions of Andrew Tate? What is the female version of PUAs? The closest I can think of are "femininity coaches," (which is really just diluted and repackaged sex worker tactics) and even they aren't necessarily misandrist.
I understand. I don't think the singers have that same level of influence as manosphere guys (as someone who's been in manosphere spaces for a long time)
“I don't think the singers have that same level of influence as manosphere guys”
I would be interested in hearing how you reached that conclusion and how you are quantifying influence here.
Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande, and Miley Cyrus have an order of magnitude more followers on social media than any manosphere influencer.
Andrew Tate, as an example, has been banned from the Meta family of social networks, TikTok, and YouTube. He has 10.1M followers on X/Twitter.
Taylor Swift, by contrast, has not been banned from any social platform. She has 95M followers on Twitter, 283M on Instagram, 33M on TikTok, 92M monthly listeners on Spotify, and 80M followers on Facebook. Even eliminating people following her on multiple platforms, that’s still an audience of a couple hundred million vs Andrew Tate’s 10M. You could pull similar numbers for Beyoncé, Ariana Grande, and Miley Cyrus. Sabrina Carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo aren’t quite there yet but they each have about 40M on insta so I’d say they are still ahead of any manosphere influencer (closest seems to be Dan Bilzerian at 31.5M).
I got exposed to masculinity guru content like a decade ago, and the community at the time had “Fight Club” rules where you didn’t talk about it in public. It’s incredibly niche compared to these pop stars, who have audiences in the hundreds of millions.
I’m struggling to see how you can make a good faith argument that the manosphere is more influential than pop music
All of these women have songs about being in love. Beyoncé’s album ended with her forgiving her husband and celebrating their love. You’re not seriously comparing break-up songs to human sex trafficking…right?
That’s a much better criticism of my initial comment, thank you.
Male pop stars do write break up songs. However, I’d argue that predominantly their audiences are women. Justin Bieber, Charlie Puth, Shawn Mendes, Harry Styles, Justin Timberlake, John Mayer, and so on all have audiences of mostly women. In terms of influence with men, I’d say all of these artists fall short of a true comparison here.
The best comparison to my initial comment I can think of is Drake (in terms of popularity with men, influence, social media following, etc.). I’d argue though that Drake is predominantly known for his public feuding with other rappers, more so than having a particular view of women. But even in his most famous “break up” song (Marvin’s Room), the lyrics are him criticizing the dude his ex is with and saying fuck that guy, rather than demonize his ex directly like most female pop stars would.
In my bubble this seems like a pareto distribution problem; (maybe?) 20% of the population making 80% of the noise? I am around teens and young adults a lot, and they all seem to like each other fine. I accept that the "reality" seems different on "some" and youtube (substack even); but IRL around my parts, it seems to only apply to certain groups of female university students (not liking men) and male gamers (not liking/even despising women in a slightly autistic way).
There's a distribution of male personality characteristics and female, with lots of overlap in these curves, but at the extreme ends on either side, there's virtually no overlap. What all this is about is the tail end of both distributions hating each other because 1. They truly have nothing in common and no shared motivations, feelings, interests, or ability to comprehend each other, but 2. Still wanting to get together to mate, and 3. Now being exposed to exactly how the other really thinks, because it's all out there on the internet now and exposed for the other to see, while this type of person used to be cordoned off into male or female centric spaces where they didn't hear each other.
There are plenty of people in the overlapping part of the bell curves who get along just fine and who are quite happy together and having a fine and dandy time. In a sense, for them things may have never been better. The people on the tail ends have a problem though. They truly do not like each other, at all, and only view each other for instrumental purposes. Therefore they simply spend all their time thinking about how to dominate and/or weaken the other side in order to be able to take ownership of and control them, because they really just want to extract something from them, they don't enjoy them as people in their own right. These are the people making all the noise and who are trying to drag everyone down with them in their misery.
They're also highly threatened by the people in the overlap. Those people have no trouble with relationships and are typically much more attractive relationship partners. They view them as intersexual competition and therefore spend just as much time trying to shame, denigrate, and lower the status of the overlap people as they do hating on the opposite sex. Very female-strong personality tail type women will call overlap women pick mes who are traitors to their gender. Very male-strong personality tail type men will call overlap men soyboys and simps and cucks. These are blatant attempts to try to neutralize intersexual competition by lowering the status of the most romantically successful, so that they can continue on waging war against the opposite sex.
I agree with 99% of this post, because the the 1% is there are indeed soyboy simp cucks who, you guessed it:
are not part of the overlap people, because if they weren't, they would be in the "overlap" group OR attempting to transition into the "overlap" group.
First of all, what an honor to get a reply from you, Kryptogal (Kate, if you like), cool! I appreciate both the reply and your writing! I believe you are absolutely right. They; "the people making all the noise and who are trying to drag everyone down with them in their misery", are both verbose and industrious, so they do take up a lot of space-
Well, thank you! And I hope you forgive that my phone auto-corrected all my instances of intrasexual to intersexual. :/
These verbose and industrious angry people online really are a problem though, and not just for each other but for all of us. Because it's easy to see too much of that stuff and start thinking they are representative of the whole, or more common than they seem. I will admit that if I ever make the terrible mistake of going on Twitter, I can easily come away feeling like I hate men, because of how vitriolic they are there. This despite the fact that literally no man in real life has ever behaved in that manner or expressed such thoughts/feelings, and I have no reason at all to hate men based on my daily dealings with them in life. It's purely an online-only phenomenon. I'm not on Tik Tok, but maybe I'd think the same of women if I was. And this also applies to lots of other dimensions of polarization too (political, age-based, etc). Everyone has a tendency to dismiss and/or forgive extremes and bad behavior on their own "side", because they don't view it as representative, but people rarely grant that much grace to others.
The thing is I think, if you’re heterosexual, you have to keep your resentment towards the opposite sex low if you actually want to be successful. You just can’t be a man-hater or woman-hater and be in a relationship like that at the same time. Ofc you can’t rid yourself of some bile, but that shouldn’t be enough for you to make broad, damning generalizations
Yes, but the weird thing is that I see SO MUCH LESS hate in queer and asexual spaces. I never hear lesbians talking about how they hate men, ever. Usually, they have a lot of gay male friends. Same with aces; they tend to hate sexually aggressive behavior but don't turn it into more general misandry. Why is it that straights seem to hate each other more?
Academic lesbian college professors like Sally Miller Gearhart and Mary Daly were the source of a lot of institutional misandry that you see in the Anglosphere today. The former actually gave a talk about reducing the population of men to 10% of the world population; the title should be familiar - The Future-if there is one-is Female. Daly agreed and called it a "necessary decontamination of the Earth."
There are others. This hatred is not limited to heterosexuals.
I'm wondering how much this is a regional thing, because you're describing *exactly* the way I felt in NY in 2020/2021. But now, living in South Dakota, I'm Queen of the Queers lol. But gay culture here is what gay culture was in New York 20 years ago. So I know exactly what you're talking about, and I should probably communicate WAY more clearly about these things online because "queer", "liberal", etc means something different in South Dakota than in places like New York.
Oh god, I had almost forgotten how much they hate "cis" people there. I'm bi, and still got the "cishet" hate because I was dating a man lol. Ugh, what did I sign up for by taking a trip there next month?
This is partly because lesbians are great. I’ve always gotten along very well with lesbians and was practically raised by some very kind, wise gay women. I think it’d because they have no expectations about masculinity, either positive or negative, and treat men as individuals.
Right, it’s a segment of society where no one has to worry about rigid “traditional” roles as much. I think men need to be liberated from being shoehorned into specific roles and expectations just as much as women do.
Completely disagree. Firstly I’ve seen vicious lesbians DV is common in their relationships. They write articles bullying the butch lesbians for being “patriarchal” on here too.
And the problem is now that people who are suited for roles have to fight a system that pushes against them. No one’s shoehorned anything since the 70s. Expectations for anything have collapsed leaving people aimless and not knowing what the other party wants.
To be honest, I have had quite a few lesbian friends and they were very avid about hating men, and never wanted to hear about them or would get uncomfortable if I even mentioned a man. They are non-binary, but call themselves lesbians, just to clarify.
I guess this goes with my theory that "it's not men that people are hating on, it's a specific type of male sexual attention/energy." All the misandrist stuff I see online is 100% in the context of sex/dating, never in the context of just being friends or whatever.
i dont get either trend, im pro men and women and i also dont live in this world, i still know plenty of people liking and obsessing over the opposite sex. i think the best thing people should do is get off tiktok cuz theres a big world out there.
This is not new. I am 71. My mom and her gf neighbors sat around and ragged on their husbands for hours in coffee fueled complaint fests. This was 1960. But it was sort of like the slaves back in their cabins bitching about their masters. That said, I actually like men and I have been married for 40 years to a good one. His mom and sisters deserve some credit.
So it might be just how social dynamics between the sexes have always been throughout human history which is quite depressing to think about but I’m not sure. What’s your take on it?
I'm weird with this stuff... I hate dating and don't enjoy penetrative sex at all due to medical problems. I don't really want a boyfriend/husband (although I have loved what it does to society's perception of me when I'm in a relationship...). I don't want to be in a situation where I feel I'm supposed to be "putting out". However, I actually *love* men. My entire life, I've always had close platonic relationships with people of all genders. Some of my favorite people are men I'm platonically involved with and not romantically/sexually involved with. Attempts to make it anything but platonic would ruin it.
I wonder if women who are 100% heterosexual have more contempt/misandry going on because they can't take the pressures around sex, etc., out of the equation the way queers and aces can? I *never* get the sense in LGBTQ+ communities or in asexual groups that men and women hate each other; this seems to be a heterosexual dating problem.
There are even gay groups online that spoof this by asking, "Are the straights OK?" and then everyone talks about how "no, the straights are definitely not OK." Maybe heteros need to look at what queers and aces are doing that makes them not hate any one gender?
I’m not sure it’s necessarily less media driven than the manosphere. Part of why the manosphere has a few big names is because it’s out of cultural power, so confined to a few specialty influencers.
But feminism is practically the default now. “Future is female”, rhetoric about the threat about men to women (even if it’s actually gone down in absolute terms, and has always been less than the threat from to men from men), or just generally portraying men as useless and ‘should be happy she’s around’ . passing comments in shows and celebrities add up, even if they’re not part of some campaign
I love this piece! Throughout my life and dating experience I’ve lacked the awareness to recognize when my behavior was toxic. I’ve been on the receiving end of hurtful behavior. There were times where I was gaslighting because the feeling of having control stuffed my empathy into the cellar. There were times where the woman I was dating gaslit me. We’ve all been a villain, hero, victim, etc at some point in our existence and forgiving myself for playing out inherited belief systems was a huge step towards a healthy relationship with love and intimacy. I don’t identify as the hero or the villain anymore, but they still inform me of areas of my belief systems that need softening.
Corporate interests align with people blaming each other for their problems,rather than forging strong unions.The easiest person to sell staff is one who is anxious and lonely.The reason men and women hate each other online,is because that brings attention,which some people can monetize.Expecting people to talk about their normal healthy relationship online,is like expecting news to talk about peace between US and Canada instead of war in Ukraine.
Thank you for stating the obvious. What's most frustrating about this to me is that a man even gesturing to this dynamic among women online (read: most "normie" spaces on the internet/social media) usually results in severe backlash. You can't acknowledge the reductive statements as reductive, the contempt as contempt, or the double standards as double standards without being thoroughly excoriated for daring to criticize the behavior of women.
Yeah, if there's one thing males have always been afraid of, both modernly and historically, it's criticizing the behavior of women.
It's just so hard to do, hard to find in media, and so verboten.
Tell the Taliban about your amazing ideas.
Proving the point perhaps?
Right on queue...
You’re proving his point exactly. Outside of the obviously dysfunctional manosphere there’s not much room to talk about this kind of serious issue, because many people are so sensitive to the idea of criticizing women in this way that it gets shut down. Both sexes have problems with how they view the other. That one has a small minority that vehemently hates/is envious of women does not let the other side, where low level misandry is commonplace, off the hook.
LOL OH REALLY
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. You think because you can't get Tinder matches that everyone is afraid to criticize women.
You don't see how women are discussed in the media, by men in general, by men historically because it doesn't affect you and as a male you do not have the capability to engage in self-awareness.
Just because nobody wants to fuck you doesn't mean women don't get treated like shit, both historically and globally.
It's not both sides. Stop telling yourself that because you can't get a date.
And if your best comeback BUT IT'S NOT ALL THOUGH, then thanks for proving my point. You morons can't argue to save your life.
Go tell your amazing ideas to the Taliban, to women in prisons who are forced to share cells with male rapists (because when a man says he "feels like" he's a woman, the whole world has to listen!), and women forced to carry dead fetuses in Texas. Like there aren't multiple podcasts literally dedicated to humiliating women by men who can't get laid so they can feel better about themselves. It's non-stop, in the media, everywhere.
Just shut up. You know nothing.
Is it a good thing that men and women seem to hate each other? No. But, to be blunt, it seems like the inevitable consequence in a patriarchal world that has oppressed women for centuries. I mean, this is the first generation where women have not faced massive economic and social backlash for decentering men and expressing their rage. Are we really surprised at women's reaction? Really? *Especially* considering the fall of Roe v Wade in the US? Women not liking men results in the girlies complaining online in sometimes angry, sometimes funny Tiktoks. Men not liking women results in a spike of men beating their pregnant girlfriends to death. What gender war? There is a war on women and femme-presenting people, but there is no war on men. There is female oppression and the very rational reaction to it.
"We are supposed to like each other." Yes, of course. But I don't expect any woman to apologize, to tone it down, or to swallow her anger at the boot on her neck. Remove the boot, and the culture will change.
The boot is not on your neck. It's in your imagination.
I agree, why are we being told off for decentering men. If 2 out of 5 women yhat ate murdered are murdered by their partner then how is it bad that women are choosing not to settle down and have babies with the thing thats likely to kill her?
Very well said. So true.
The casual, unembarrassed contempt for men that many women, particularly younger ones, give voice to is extraordinarily annoying and obnoxious. If I were a young man, I would be strongly repulsed by it.
But the thing is...
men deserve it.
And they'll admit it when pressed.
Oh gods not BPD Barbie again….
I am starting to appreciate her pure hate. If I learned she was like this celibate tech Chinese misandrist that did IVF to not have any contact with men and not have a male baby, I would have to tip my hat to her.
Yeah it’s definitely rare to find unalloyed misanthropy like that. And she seems sincere.
Y'all met TERF Vibes yet? Another amazing woman.
Half the population of the planet deserves to be held in contempt. Sure. Got it.
This is vicious, deranged, eliminationist thinking.
Thanks for proving the point.
The fact that someone like you unironically exists irl brings me so much joy, I would love to meet you and see how deranged you act in a public setting
soy bitch men deserve it*
There, I fixed it for you.
:)
Really?? Like literally ALL men?
Completely agree. Nowadays if you’re younger and don’t hate men you’re titled a “pick me” especially for having male friends. Its become trendy to hate men, but when a man hates a woman, its suddenly a horrible thing to do? Of course it is, but what do you expect when some women are so open and proud about their hatred of the other sex. That behavior attracts exactly what it puts out. It’s sexism either way. Its immaturity and ignorance either way. Sincerely, a woman who is fed up with people normalizing hate.
I wonder how much of this is downstream from hookup culture and the idea that all women can approach sex as casually as men. If women are harmed, emotionally or physically, by casual sex, that could naturally lead to a level of distaste for men. The Case Against the Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry has some thought-provoking points on this subject that would be relevant to the discussion (though some of her conclusions fall short).
Oh yeah, that book is fantastic. I think she nailed it, and you're right about hookup culture being part of the problem. Notice that in my description of how "I love men," I specify that I especially love those with whom I have a platonic relationship. I keep the ones wanting sex at arm's length. I think if everyone ditched hookup culture and focused on just having friends of whatever gender, there'd be more happiness and less hate.
I think if everyone focused much more on having friends of whatever gender, hook-ups would be less of a minefield and a lot more fun ❤️
Maybe? I guess it depends on the people. Personally, my experiences with hookups are “meh” at best, and destroy a good friendship at worst.
To me, it doesn't matter whether The Sexual Revolution is good or bad.
It just is, and good luck doing anything to change it. We just have to learn to live with it.
I think the women "disliking men" thing is a running joke. In my experience, women who talk like that are having plenty of sex with men. If you are a man, and you hear women talking like that, and you take it seriously / get offended, you are failing an EQ test.
That being said, it's probably not good for your psyche to casually dislike the opposite sex. Even if you are a lesbian, you will still have to be friends with your brother-in-law, etc.
>I think the women "disliking men" thing is a running joke. In my experience, women who talk like that are having plenty of sex with men. If you are a man, and you hear women talking like that, and you take it seriously / get offended, you are failing an EQ test.
Are you? Or are you just reacting like a human would to a situation in which dehumanizing language is normalized?
If that kind of language was used about women you'd be pitching a fit.
This is exactly what I am talking about. "Reacting like a human to dehumanizing language" buddy, men used to go to war.
Men still do go to war. What's your point? That's you think that men should just stop being pussies and accept they deserve to be treated like shit?
Thank you for proving my point
Failing an Emotional Quality? test because I think it's retarded that a lot of females want to hate ALL men because they've been brianwashed by the " women have been slaves for millenia" bullshit?
OKAY! (eye roll)
Thank you for proving my point
LOL., only in your head.
Dont worry kid, You are still Mommy's Little Champion.
;)
I don't think that actually liking someone is always a requirement for casual sex when people are into that, though.
I wasn't just talking about casual sex. But even for casual sex, these women are still finding men charming and funny and enjoyable to be around.
Real disdain between the sexes is a serious problem.
The reason man-hating by women isn't as big a deal in our society as the reverse is that nobody takes women themselves seriously when they spout off about such things. She'll likely decide she likes men tomorrow if it suits her fancy. Not saying it's ok for women to be this way, since real damage can be and is done from their whimsy, whether they like it or not.
But men expressing their disdain for women, on the other hand, are taken seriously. Sensing the seriousness of these men, and the problems it poses for human continuity, to say nothing of flourishing, it is recognized as a real problem, and confronted as such.
It's also, I suspect, the reason women voicing their dislike of men is so ubiquitous and normalized. There are no consequences for their doing so, certainly no serious bad feedback. They feel quite free to complain about men because it feels good to do so, at least in the moment, and no one is likely to call them out on it.
Yah. Women saying they hate men is interpreted as frustration or disappointment. The expectation is that it will pass.
Men don't use words to express frustration or disappointment. So men saying that they hate women is interpreted as expressing the result of lengthy deliberations, not in-the-moment emotions. That's why it's taken seriously.
Re the "war of the sexes", the opposite of love is not hate but indifference. It will be time to worry when the fashion, cosmetics, and diet industries crash and burn. Or when sex robots go completely mainstream, and men self-segregate into male-coded jobs like construction or mining.
> Unlike the Manosphere, this world of women who dislike men isn’t propped up by many notable female figures whose claim to fame is touting some sort of pro-women ideology. I instead get the sense that it is propped up largely by everyday people, run-of-the-mill girls who see themselves as part of the norm
I'll push back on the idea that there are not women propping up this pro-woman ideology. Arguably, do female pop stars not fulfill the same role as the manosphere influencers? Some examples:
- Sabrina Carpenter's "Please Please Please" is about how the guy she's seeing is embarrassing and she doesn't want to be seen in public with him
- Olivia Rodrigo's "Vampire" is about how the guy she used to date is a sociopath
- Miley Cyrus's "Flowers" is about how she can be independent
- Ariana Grande's "thank u, next" is also about how she can be independent
- Haven't listened to it, but Beyonce's "Lemonade" album is about Jay-Z's infidelity
- Taylor Swift has built an entire career on writing songs about her relationships with men and how they hurt her
It's not as explicit as the manosphere influencers (except for Sabrina Carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo, who are pretty explicit in what they are saying) but I'd argue these women serve the same function as memetic superspreaders of these ideas
I would add.
-Ashnikko's "Stupid" is a rad fem tirade that went viral (100M) with imagery about killing men and dehumanising lyrics. Far more extreme than even the darkest black pillers.
-Kimbra's "Settle down" Catastrophising fears about being replaced and abandoned.
I don't even consider their ideology pro woman. More fearful and anti-life.
It's true. The manosphere has a tiny insignificant influence compared to music. More a vocalization of a emergent reaction in men than something steering things.
Notice how all of your examples are of singers. Why are there no prominent female versions of Andrew Tate? What is the female version of PUAs? The closest I can think of are "femininity coaches," (which is really just diluted and repackaged sex worker tactics) and even they aren't necessarily misandrist.
“Notice how all of your examples are of singers”
I would hope they are all singers, that was my thesis!
I understand. I don't think the singers have that same level of influence as manosphere guys (as someone who's been in manosphere spaces for a long time)
“I don't think the singers have that same level of influence as manosphere guys”
I would be interested in hearing how you reached that conclusion and how you are quantifying influence here.
Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande, and Miley Cyrus have an order of magnitude more followers on social media than any manosphere influencer.
Andrew Tate, as an example, has been banned from the Meta family of social networks, TikTok, and YouTube. He has 10.1M followers on X/Twitter.
Taylor Swift, by contrast, has not been banned from any social platform. She has 95M followers on Twitter, 283M on Instagram, 33M on TikTok, 92M monthly listeners on Spotify, and 80M followers on Facebook. Even eliminating people following her on multiple platforms, that’s still an audience of a couple hundred million vs Andrew Tate’s 10M. You could pull similar numbers for Beyoncé, Ariana Grande, and Miley Cyrus. Sabrina Carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo aren’t quite there yet but they each have about 40M on insta so I’d say they are still ahead of any manosphere influencer (closest seems to be Dan Bilzerian at 31.5M).
I got exposed to masculinity guru content like a decade ago, and the community at the time had “Fight Club” rules where you didn’t talk about it in public. It’s incredibly niche compared to these pop stars, who have audiences in the hundreds of millions.
I’m struggling to see how you can make a good faith argument that the manosphere is more influential than pop music
All of these women have songs about being in love. Beyoncé’s album ended with her forgiving her husband and celebrating their love. You’re not seriously comparing break-up songs to human sex trafficking…right?
Actually, I am! You’ve seen right through me
Do men not sing break-up songs? Seems like that would be the fair comparison here.
That’s a much better criticism of my initial comment, thank you.
Male pop stars do write break up songs. However, I’d argue that predominantly their audiences are women. Justin Bieber, Charlie Puth, Shawn Mendes, Harry Styles, Justin Timberlake, John Mayer, and so on all have audiences of mostly women. In terms of influence with men, I’d say all of these artists fall short of a true comparison here.
The best comparison to my initial comment I can think of is Drake (in terms of popularity with men, influence, social media following, etc.). I’d argue though that Drake is predominantly known for his public feuding with other rappers, more so than having a particular view of women. But even in his most famous “break up” song (Marvin’s Room), the lyrics are him criticizing the dude his ex is with and saying fuck that guy, rather than demonize his ex directly like most female pop stars would.
In my bubble this seems like a pareto distribution problem; (maybe?) 20% of the population making 80% of the noise? I am around teens and young adults a lot, and they all seem to like each other fine. I accept that the "reality" seems different on "some" and youtube (substack even); but IRL around my parts, it seems to only apply to certain groups of female university students (not liking men) and male gamers (not liking/even despising women in a slightly autistic way).
There's a distribution of male personality characteristics and female, with lots of overlap in these curves, but at the extreme ends on either side, there's virtually no overlap. What all this is about is the tail end of both distributions hating each other because 1. They truly have nothing in common and no shared motivations, feelings, interests, or ability to comprehend each other, but 2. Still wanting to get together to mate, and 3. Now being exposed to exactly how the other really thinks, because it's all out there on the internet now and exposed for the other to see, while this type of person used to be cordoned off into male or female centric spaces where they didn't hear each other.
There are plenty of people in the overlapping part of the bell curves who get along just fine and who are quite happy together and having a fine and dandy time. In a sense, for them things may have never been better. The people on the tail ends have a problem though. They truly do not like each other, at all, and only view each other for instrumental purposes. Therefore they simply spend all their time thinking about how to dominate and/or weaken the other side in order to be able to take ownership of and control them, because they really just want to extract something from them, they don't enjoy them as people in their own right. These are the people making all the noise and who are trying to drag everyone down with them in their misery.
They're also highly threatened by the people in the overlap. Those people have no trouble with relationships and are typically much more attractive relationship partners. They view them as intersexual competition and therefore spend just as much time trying to shame, denigrate, and lower the status of the overlap people as they do hating on the opposite sex. Very female-strong personality tail type women will call overlap women pick mes who are traitors to their gender. Very male-strong personality tail type men will call overlap men soyboys and simps and cucks. These are blatant attempts to try to neutralize intersexual competition by lowering the status of the most romantically successful, so that they can continue on waging war against the opposite sex.
I agree with 99% of this post, because the the 1% is there are indeed soyboy simp cucks who, you guessed it:
are not part of the overlap people, because if they weren't, they would be in the "overlap" group OR attempting to transition into the "overlap" group.
Edit: mistyped & repeat words.
First of all, what an honor to get a reply from you, Kryptogal (Kate, if you like), cool! I appreciate both the reply and your writing! I believe you are absolutely right. They; "the people making all the noise and who are trying to drag everyone down with them in their misery", are both verbose and industrious, so they do take up a lot of space-
Well, thank you! And I hope you forgive that my phone auto-corrected all my instances of intrasexual to intersexual. :/
These verbose and industrious angry people online really are a problem though, and not just for each other but for all of us. Because it's easy to see too much of that stuff and start thinking they are representative of the whole, or more common than they seem. I will admit that if I ever make the terrible mistake of going on Twitter, I can easily come away feeling like I hate men, because of how vitriolic they are there. This despite the fact that literally no man in real life has ever behaved in that manner or expressed such thoughts/feelings, and I have no reason at all to hate men based on my daily dealings with them in life. It's purely an online-only phenomenon. I'm not on Tik Tok, but maybe I'd think the same of women if I was. And this also applies to lots of other dimensions of polarization too (political, age-based, etc). Everyone has a tendency to dismiss and/or forgive extremes and bad behavior on their own "side", because they don't view it as representative, but people rarely grant that much grace to others.
The thing is I think, if you’re heterosexual, you have to keep your resentment towards the opposite sex low if you actually want to be successful. You just can’t be a man-hater or woman-hater and be in a relationship like that at the same time. Ofc you can’t rid yourself of some bile, but that shouldn’t be enough for you to make broad, damning generalizations
Yes, but the weird thing is that I see SO MUCH LESS hate in queer and asexual spaces. I never hear lesbians talking about how they hate men, ever. Usually, they have a lot of gay male friends. Same with aces; they tend to hate sexually aggressive behavior but don't turn it into more general misandry. Why is it that straights seem to hate each other more?
Academic lesbian college professors like Sally Miller Gearhart and Mary Daly were the source of a lot of institutional misandry that you see in the Anglosphere today. The former actually gave a talk about reducing the population of men to 10% of the world population; the title should be familiar - The Future-if there is one-is Female. Daly agreed and called it a "necessary decontamination of the Earth."
There are others. This hatred is not limited to heterosexuals.
I'm in plenty of queer spaces that seem to express their disdain for (cishet) men to the point where I've ended up running back to the straights lol
I'm wondering how much this is a regional thing, because you're describing *exactly* the way I felt in NY in 2020/2021. But now, living in South Dakota, I'm Queen of the Queers lol. But gay culture here is what gay culture was in New York 20 years ago. So I know exactly what you're talking about, and I should probably communicate WAY more clearly about these things online because "queer", "liberal", etc means something different in South Dakota than in places like New York.
I can definitely see that. I'm currently in NYC
Oh god, I had almost forgotten how much they hate "cis" people there. I'm bi, and still got the "cishet" hate because I was dating a man lol. Ugh, what did I sign up for by taking a trip there next month?
This is partly because lesbians are great. I’ve always gotten along very well with lesbians and was practically raised by some very kind, wise gay women. I think it’d because they have no expectations about masculinity, either positive or negative, and treat men as individuals.
Right, it’s a segment of society where no one has to worry about rigid “traditional” roles as much. I think men need to be liberated from being shoehorned into specific roles and expectations just as much as women do.
Completely disagree. Firstly I’ve seen vicious lesbians DV is common in their relationships. They write articles bullying the butch lesbians for being “patriarchal” on here too.
And the problem is now that people who are suited for roles have to fight a system that pushes against them. No one’s shoehorned anything since the 70s. Expectations for anything have collapsed leaving people aimless and not knowing what the other party wants.
To be honest, I have had quite a few lesbian friends and they were very avid about hating men, and never wanted to hear about them or would get uncomfortable if I even mentioned a man. They are non-binary, but call themselves lesbians, just to clarify.
Lots of lesbians hate straight men. IDK what Anna Cole is talking about
Gay male Friends???? We are talking about cishet hate here friend. Of course they like gay males.
I guess this goes with my theory that "it's not men that people are hating on, it's a specific type of male sexual attention/energy." All the misandrist stuff I see online is 100% in the context of sex/dating, never in the context of just being friends or whatever.
i dont get either trend, im pro men and women and i also dont live in this world, i still know plenty of people liking and obsessing over the opposite sex. i think the best thing people should do is get off tiktok cuz theres a big world out there.
This is not new. I am 71. My mom and her gf neighbors sat around and ragged on their husbands for hours in coffee fueled complaint fests. This was 1960. But it was sort of like the slaves back in their cabins bitching about their masters. That said, I actually like men and I have been married for 40 years to a good one. His mom and sisters deserve some credit.
So it might be just how social dynamics between the sexes have always been throughout human history which is quite depressing to think about but I’m not sure. What’s your take on it?
I think it speaks to women's power now. No one cared about the grumbling of women in 1960. They were far enough down the hierarchy to ignore.
I wonder how ‘Not New’ this is, I’ve read stuff about our ancestral environment/hunter-gatherer ancestors and the women rag on the men there too.
I'm weird with this stuff... I hate dating and don't enjoy penetrative sex at all due to medical problems. I don't really want a boyfriend/husband (although I have loved what it does to society's perception of me when I'm in a relationship...). I don't want to be in a situation where I feel I'm supposed to be "putting out". However, I actually *love* men. My entire life, I've always had close platonic relationships with people of all genders. Some of my favorite people are men I'm platonically involved with and not romantically/sexually involved with. Attempts to make it anything but platonic would ruin it.
I wonder if women who are 100% heterosexual have more contempt/misandry going on because they can't take the pressures around sex, etc., out of the equation the way queers and aces can? I *never* get the sense in LGBTQ+ communities or in asexual groups that men and women hate each other; this seems to be a heterosexual dating problem.
There are even gay groups online that spoof this by asking, "Are the straights OK?" and then everyone talks about how "no, the straights are definitely not OK." Maybe heteros need to look at what queers and aces are doing that makes them not hate any one gender?
I’m not sure it’s necessarily less media driven than the manosphere. Part of why the manosphere has a few big names is because it’s out of cultural power, so confined to a few specialty influencers.
But feminism is practically the default now. “Future is female”, rhetoric about the threat about men to women (even if it’s actually gone down in absolute terms, and has always been less than the threat from to men from men), or just generally portraying men as useless and ‘should be happy she’s around’ . passing comments in shows and celebrities add up, even if they’re not part of some campaign
Honey this ain’t new. Only maybe 1 in 5 older women LIKE their husbands.
I love this piece! Throughout my life and dating experience I’ve lacked the awareness to recognize when my behavior was toxic. I’ve been on the receiving end of hurtful behavior. There were times where I was gaslighting because the feeling of having control stuffed my empathy into the cellar. There were times where the woman I was dating gaslit me. We’ve all been a villain, hero, victim, etc at some point in our existence and forgiving myself for playing out inherited belief systems was a huge step towards a healthy relationship with love and intimacy. I don’t identify as the hero or the villain anymore, but they still inform me of areas of my belief systems that need softening.
Corporate interests align with people blaming each other for their problems,rather than forging strong unions.The easiest person to sell staff is one who is anxious and lonely.The reason men and women hate each other online,is because that brings attention,which some people can monetize.Expecting people to talk about their normal healthy relationship online,is like expecting news to talk about peace between US and Canada instead of war in Ukraine.