It's nice to see someone objectively recognize that the seething Nick Fuentes/Andrew Tate incel corner of the manosphere is a fringe one, largely disconnected from the mainstream bros who enjoy a cold one and bitching about why the Browns will never get it together.
The latter generally love their wives and girlfriends and moms and sisters and will go to the mat for them, regardless of how their idiosyncracies grate on their nerves. The former will die angry and lonely, some in the headlines, some in obscurity.
Perhaps defining Manosphere as 'incels / men who hate women' is a bit reductive - one could just say 'men who hate women?' Even if it's "center(ed) around misogyny, men’s rights and inceldom," it risks conflating three phenomenon that often exist independently.
This type of conflation was popular at the height of Jezebel feminism (think 2010), which was a huge net negative for positive relations between the sexes. That type of critique fails because it doesn't contend with; (misogyny) how much misogyny is a reaction to misandry, (MR) what claims of men's rights are valid and should be addressed, (inceldom) how much of inceldom is a result of inequalities in dating markets? These questions are all valid no matter how one feels about misogynists, mra's and incels, and the opprobrium they often deserve.
I no longer pay attention to what might be called the Manosphere, so perhaps I'm wrong. But I was there at its beginning, and despite the bad (Game, 4Chan), which was easy to disregard, there was a lot of good, mostly in the realm of self-improvement, which is still proliferating today. I would argue that a lot of the 'virtuous masculine' conversation we are having now grew out of the early Manosphere.
Yes, were I to go back and expand on this I would further define the Manosphere. I have also written elsewhere about how PUA guys seem so out of line with the Manosphere of today, even though they were very much a part of it from the beginning. It’s unfortunate that whatever good there was to take from the Manosphere has been reduced to anti-feminism and misogyny. But, at very least, I am trying to separate whatever the Manosphere is today from the Zynternet.
I don't understand why women push back on the more reasonable points of the self-improvement philosophy: money and looks matter, and you should get the best job you can work out.
Because women hate all men who aren't 11/10 Super-Chads from the start. You improving yourself (if such a thing is even possible) means that she's being lied to about your Chadness.
I dunno how to say it in a way that parses perfectly as what it is, which is an entirely non-rhetorical question out of sincere curiosity, but do spaces like r/IncelExit count as “manosphere” or something else? (I almost asked if it’s Zynternet but as I typed I kind of decided it can’t be.)
Agreed. There needs to be room for a male conversation on dating and relationships, which
(a) isn't just repeating back what women are saying, and adding on "You're totally right! You go girl!" (i.e. actually authentic rather than sycophantic male feminism)
(b) isn't instantly written off as misogyny
Men and women both have valid perspectives, and we're best off if we compassionately seek to understand, synthesize, and explore those perspectives and eventually take concrete steps to increase collective well-being.
I suspect part of the issue, actually, is that guys who have found something that works for them don't particularly want to share it, to maintain their competitive advantage. Perhaps there's a similar phenomenon for women, even.
I am conservative in how I think the government should be run (a smaller government that is fiscally responsible and doesn't deficit-spend) but very liberal regarding social policies. I am also a very sensitive person and am becoming more comfortable expressing that I am a bisexual man. But I am also very masculine and straight-acting and looking. I have worked blue-collar jobs in the past and have associated with many who could be considered "bros," along with a lot of misogynistic people. I have lost count of the number of times I listened to people express opinions that were an attack against me, even though they had no idea they were attacking me because I hid my authentic self. I have also listened to and watched a lot of the influencers in the manosphere and conservative media. Like most things in our society, it seems people can make a living creating polarity, which is really sad. Over the last several months, I have distanced myself from a lot of the manosphere and conservative media because it doesn't resonate with me. And neither does leftist media, which is equally polarizing. Trying to put people in Box A or Box B leaves a lot of the nuance of humans on the table.
I also deal with women I like and respect very much who say some truly hateful things about men. Unfortunately, I need to stay quiet about my beliefs in those situations or risk losing a friend. Most of our landscape between genders is a mess, and it is unfortunate. There also seems to be a "contest" to see who's pain is more valid. I can say from first-hand experience that navigating life as a bisexual man is not easy, but in many cases, women that I consider friends want to tell me how much harder women have it. Or transgender people or people of color. Why can't I share my experience and troubles navigating life without my issues being brushed off in comparison to someone else? Can't both things be true at the same time? As someone who lives with many opposing views, which are valid for me, without each view supporting the other, I find our current environment difficult.
I understand why men would like to adopt the "Chill Guy" persona, but for me, that isn't anywhere close to my reality. However, there are many situations where that is precisely how I need to behave, and that can cause a tremendous amount of stress and anxiety. Ultimately, being the "Chill Guy" leaves me feeling alone, isolated, and unheard. I find many of the "influencers" on both sides of the coin as merely content creators that are unable to see the nuance between indivduals.
"Sports" themselves are a great example of the difference between the true Manosphere and the broader Zynternet/Barstool Cinematic Universe. Obviously the Barstool world are big fans whereas some of the hardcore Manosphere/right-wing incel types will argue that watching sports is bad and you should spend your time on whatever made-up hustle grind instead of being a cuck who's spoonfed Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift propaganda by the woke NFL.
I think people's vision of "normal" is not necessarily based in reality. "normal" at very least means "not what is happening right now," and that is unfortunately I think a lot of people saw Harris as representative of "what is happening right now"
It seems implicit in your comment that you’ve recognized the definitional drift in how people use the term “incels”, I’m saying that’s also happened with “manosphere” and it’s too late to try to reclaim it or put a positive spin back on. Easier to just keep coining new words that mean the same thing the old ones used to, even though that’s admittedly kind of annoying.
(in the case of “incel”, people seem to have given up on new coinage and settle for one-paragraph preambles)
What I was questioning was your statement of how the term incel as it is currently used, bears no relationship to its original meaning. The literal meaning is involuntary celibate. I am aware that it is frequently used as some kind of a insult, much like creep would be, but I am not aware of what you were specifically referring to in your comment. What is your understanding of its current meaning?
Well for one thing, it was coined by a woman… and the idea was to coin a shorthand (and grow supportive communities) for those of us who… struggle, or have in the past struggled, greatly with finding a romantic and/or sexual partner. I know that sounds weird ‘cause even that doesn’t perfectly map to the dictionary definitions of the root words but, well, words and concepts are hard, and terms like “lonely” don’t get the right ideas across either.
What it means _now_ is male internet trolls who hate women, including married and/or sexually active ones. Regardless of whether any given person thinks that actually makes sense, that’s the definition we’re stuck with post-Elliot Rodger.
"He represents our current sense of the lack of authority in our own lives, and the imperative to grin and bear it, anyway. "
you're not male. don't pretend that this is a "generational issue." women have full control of their easy and given sex lives where they trade up and have plentiful options by default. he is resigned to feminism and its sexual polygamy system, monogamy not being worth it (she gets bored and cheats almost immediately), and family and divorce court systems that are female first, not to mention that the entire society is 100% about "girl power" 100% of the time. more women in more colleges getting bigger salaries more of the time. women are selected for as loyal regime commissars (having been promised consequence-free sex by the regime- they will never stray). I know its fun to pretend to be a victim but no white woman is "being victimized" in America in 2024.
women are garbage sluts and prostitutes when too old to be sluts, they all cheat, none are monogamous and all watch films about women cheating on their husbands. there is no consequence for women's behavior towards men and women's response is "whatever, I don't care, deal with it."
then men deal with it and you pretend that you're right there with them as victims. men check out and you try to shame them as "bitter" or "angry" when they're just oppressed by the current regime and its society. at any other time you'd call a man "needy" or co-dependent if they "needed" women, but now that they've found a way without you go and like a comment that calls them "angry and lonely."
"...when you start to vilify these everyday, fun things as conservative, you are actually only going to start pushing the people who want to feel free to enjoy them further to the Right."
Yes. Sorta. When you insult people, they don't like it and if you persist they are going to fuck you up. And that might mean voting the opposite of how you vote.
I see some questions about "manosphere" in the other comments, and I'd echo those. I just thought it was people, mostly men, concerned about men's points of view. I would have even characterized you as being part of it in some of what you write. If the term now implies misogyny, where are all the people reasonably concerned with men's rights and thoughts? We certainly get short shrift in female-dominated (I deliberately do not use "feminist") arenas. Is there some other category I'm not aware of?
The basic definition of the manosphere is a broad network of men online who promote misogyny and anti-feminism. Men who promote “men’s rights” using these themes are part of that, too. I am not a part of that, at all. My work leans feminist, though it may not always seem that way.
Would you agree that the basic definition of feminism is a movement united around promotion of misandry? No?
The defining characteristic of the Manosphere is men navel-gazing about masculinity from a specifically male perspective, with a focus on ideas that lead to action
"When I talk about the Manosphere, I am talking about incels and men who vocally, avowedly hate women." That is not remotely what it was when it started. It was guys asking, "how do you even talk to women? what do you even say?" And guys who had plausible answers answering that question. Over time the bitter and crazy stuff came along. The best written and funniest and most intelligent blog in the "pick-up artist" space, before the term manosphere was widespread, was Chateau Heartiste, which ran from 2007-2019 and the early years were the best. The avowed aim of that anonymous blog was not hatred of women, but to "find and keep real, true unconditional love and happiness" with a woman. A completely different vibe from what you are describing.
I’ve written elsewhere how much of the PUA stuff of the past doesn’t align with what the Manosphere is today. I do understand that may not have been the origin for every part of that world but that what it largely has become.
I don’t think men and women are fundamentally different. I can never truly understand another person; I’ve personally never attached the things I can’t understand, the little quirks of the people around me to a gender characteristic, and I don’t see how assuming correlation would have ever helped me. But idk I’m just a chill guy 🤷♀️
Yes, yes, and yes: "Even if we fundamentally disagree with these groups, the only way we’re going to get anywhere is if we at least try to understand each other a little better."
Demonizing an entire segment of society by association is not only disruptive to the broader political discourse, it will also come home to haunt you when you least expect it, as on November 5.
It's nice to see someone objectively recognize that the seething Nick Fuentes/Andrew Tate incel corner of the manosphere is a fringe one, largely disconnected from the mainstream bros who enjoy a cold one and bitching about why the Browns will never get it together.
The latter generally love their wives and girlfriends and moms and sisters and will go to the mat for them, regardless of how their idiosyncracies grate on their nerves. The former will die angry and lonely, some in the headlines, some in obscurity.
We will still die early though, if only because of the Browns.
💯
Reasonable assessment but it takes some work to limit the influence of those fringe idiots. Almost as much as it's going to take to fix the Browns.
The emotionally dead "just a chill guy" must have been a browns fan.
Perhaps defining Manosphere as 'incels / men who hate women' is a bit reductive - one could just say 'men who hate women?' Even if it's "center(ed) around misogyny, men’s rights and inceldom," it risks conflating three phenomenon that often exist independently.
This type of conflation was popular at the height of Jezebel feminism (think 2010), which was a huge net negative for positive relations between the sexes. That type of critique fails because it doesn't contend with; (misogyny) how much misogyny is a reaction to misandry, (MR) what claims of men's rights are valid and should be addressed, (inceldom) how much of inceldom is a result of inequalities in dating markets? These questions are all valid no matter how one feels about misogynists, mra's and incels, and the opprobrium they often deserve.
I no longer pay attention to what might be called the Manosphere, so perhaps I'm wrong. But I was there at its beginning, and despite the bad (Game, 4Chan), which was easy to disregard, there was a lot of good, mostly in the realm of self-improvement, which is still proliferating today. I would argue that a lot of the 'virtuous masculine' conversation we are having now grew out of the early Manosphere.
Yes, were I to go back and expand on this I would further define the Manosphere. I have also written elsewhere about how PUA guys seem so out of line with the Manosphere of today, even though they were very much a part of it from the beginning. It’s unfortunate that whatever good there was to take from the Manosphere has been reduced to anti-feminism and misogyny. But, at very least, I am trying to separate whatever the Manosphere is today from the Zynternet.
I don't understand why women push back on the more reasonable points of the self-improvement philosophy: money and looks matter, and you should get the best job you can work out.
Because women hate all men who aren't 11/10 Super-Chads from the start. You improving yourself (if such a thing is even possible) means that she's being lied to about your Chadness.
I dunno how to say it in a way that parses perfectly as what it is, which is an entirely non-rhetorical question out of sincere curiosity, but do spaces like r/IncelExit count as “manosphere” or something else? (I almost asked if it’s Zynternet but as I typed I kind of decided it can’t be.)
Agreed. There needs to be room for a male conversation on dating and relationships, which
(a) isn't just repeating back what women are saying, and adding on "You're totally right! You go girl!" (i.e. actually authentic rather than sycophantic male feminism)
(b) isn't instantly written off as misogyny
Men and women both have valid perspectives, and we're best off if we compassionately seek to understand, synthesize, and explore those perspectives and eventually take concrete steps to increase collective well-being.
I suspect part of the issue, actually, is that guys who have found something that works for them don't particularly want to share it, to maintain their competitive advantage. Perhaps there's a similar phenomenon for women, even.
I am conservative in how I think the government should be run (a smaller government that is fiscally responsible and doesn't deficit-spend) but very liberal regarding social policies. I am also a very sensitive person and am becoming more comfortable expressing that I am a bisexual man. But I am also very masculine and straight-acting and looking. I have worked blue-collar jobs in the past and have associated with many who could be considered "bros," along with a lot of misogynistic people. I have lost count of the number of times I listened to people express opinions that were an attack against me, even though they had no idea they were attacking me because I hid my authentic self. I have also listened to and watched a lot of the influencers in the manosphere and conservative media. Like most things in our society, it seems people can make a living creating polarity, which is really sad. Over the last several months, I have distanced myself from a lot of the manosphere and conservative media because it doesn't resonate with me. And neither does leftist media, which is equally polarizing. Trying to put people in Box A or Box B leaves a lot of the nuance of humans on the table.
I also deal with women I like and respect very much who say some truly hateful things about men. Unfortunately, I need to stay quiet about my beliefs in those situations or risk losing a friend. Most of our landscape between genders is a mess, and it is unfortunate. There also seems to be a "contest" to see who's pain is more valid. I can say from first-hand experience that navigating life as a bisexual man is not easy, but in many cases, women that I consider friends want to tell me how much harder women have it. Or transgender people or people of color. Why can't I share my experience and troubles navigating life without my issues being brushed off in comparison to someone else? Can't both things be true at the same time? As someone who lives with many opposing views, which are valid for me, without each view supporting the other, I find our current environment difficult.
I understand why men would like to adopt the "Chill Guy" persona, but for me, that isn't anywhere close to my reality. However, there are many situations where that is precisely how I need to behave, and that can cause a tremendous amount of stress and anxiety. Ultimately, being the "Chill Guy" leaves me feeling alone, isolated, and unheard. I find many of the "influencers" on both sides of the coin as merely content creators that are unable to see the nuance between indivduals.
"Sports" themselves are a great example of the difference between the true Manosphere and the broader Zynternet/Barstool Cinematic Universe. Obviously the Barstool world are big fans whereas some of the hardcore Manosphere/right-wing incel types will argue that watching sports is bad and you should spend your time on whatever made-up hustle grind instead of being a cuck who's spoonfed Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift propaganda by the woke NFL.
I also think people want to be normal and that's why I thought Trump would lose, oh well!
I think people's vision of "normal" is not necessarily based in reality. "normal" at very least means "not what is happening right now," and that is unfortunately I think a lot of people saw Harris as representative of "what is happening right now"
Most of the manosphere was just young awkward dudes who wanted a girlfriend. And older, wiser guys giving them advice.
Yes, “was.” But I don’t think that’s the case anymore.
No it still is
"When I talk about the Manosphere, I am talking about incels and men who vocally, avowedly hate women"
The manosphere does not hate women and they are not the same group as incels.
The contemporary understanding of “incel” (“inv-cel”) bears absolutely no resemblance to what it meant or was when it was first coined, either
I don't follow how that relates to my comment
It seems implicit in your comment that you’ve recognized the definitional drift in how people use the term “incels”, I’m saying that’s also happened with “manosphere” and it’s too late to try to reclaim it or put a positive spin back on. Easier to just keep coining new words that mean the same thing the old ones used to, even though that’s admittedly kind of annoying.
(in the case of “incel”, people seem to have given up on new coinage and settle for one-paragraph preambles)
What I was questioning was your statement of how the term incel as it is currently used, bears no relationship to its original meaning. The literal meaning is involuntary celibate. I am aware that it is frequently used as some kind of a insult, much like creep would be, but I am not aware of what you were specifically referring to in your comment. What is your understanding of its current meaning?
Well for one thing, it was coined by a woman… and the idea was to coin a shorthand (and grow supportive communities) for those of us who… struggle, or have in the past struggled, greatly with finding a romantic and/or sexual partner. I know that sounds weird ‘cause even that doesn’t perfectly map to the dictionary definitions of the root words but, well, words and concepts are hard, and terms like “lonely” don’t get the right ideas across either.
What it means _now_ is male internet trolls who hate women, including married and/or sexually active ones. Regardless of whether any given person thinks that actually makes sense, that’s the definition we’re stuck with post-Elliot Rodger.
Oh I see. Male trolls. That makes sense. Thanks for enlightening me.
I still stand by my original comment though. The manosphere does not hate women and incels are a separate group from it.
"He represents our current sense of the lack of authority in our own lives, and the imperative to grin and bear it, anyway. "
you're not male. don't pretend that this is a "generational issue." women have full control of their easy and given sex lives where they trade up and have plentiful options by default. he is resigned to feminism and its sexual polygamy system, monogamy not being worth it (she gets bored and cheats almost immediately), and family and divorce court systems that are female first, not to mention that the entire society is 100% about "girl power" 100% of the time. more women in more colleges getting bigger salaries more of the time. women are selected for as loyal regime commissars (having been promised consequence-free sex by the regime- they will never stray). I know its fun to pretend to be a victim but no white woman is "being victimized" in America in 2024.
women are garbage sluts and prostitutes when too old to be sluts, they all cheat, none are monogamous and all watch films about women cheating on their husbands. there is no consequence for women's behavior towards men and women's response is "whatever, I don't care, deal with it."
then men deal with it and you pretend that you're right there with them as victims. men check out and you try to shame them as "bitter" or "angry" when they're just oppressed by the current regime and its society. at any other time you'd call a man "needy" or co-dependent if they "needed" women, but now that they've found a way without you go and like a comment that calls them "angry and lonely."
"...when you start to vilify these everyday, fun things as conservative, you are actually only going to start pushing the people who want to feel free to enjoy them further to the Right."
Yes. Sorta. When you insult people, they don't like it and if you persist they are going to fuck you up. And that might mean voting the opposite of how you vote.
I see some questions about "manosphere" in the other comments, and I'd echo those. I just thought it was people, mostly men, concerned about men's points of view. I would have even characterized you as being part of it in some of what you write. If the term now implies misogyny, where are all the people reasonably concerned with men's rights and thoughts? We certainly get short shrift in female-dominated (I deliberately do not use "feminist") arenas. Is there some other category I'm not aware of?
The basic definition of the manosphere is a broad network of men online who promote misogyny and anti-feminism. Men who promote “men’s rights” using these themes are part of that, too. I am not a part of that, at all. My work leans feminist, though it may not always seem that way.
Would you agree that the basic definition of feminism is a movement united around promotion of misandry? No?
The defining characteristic of the Manosphere is men navel-gazing about masculinity from a specifically male perspective, with a focus on ideas that lead to action
You need to update your understanding of the manosphere. You are way off the mark
"When I talk about the Manosphere, I am talking about incels and men who vocally, avowedly hate women." That is not remotely what it was when it started. It was guys asking, "how do you even talk to women? what do you even say?" And guys who had plausible answers answering that question. Over time the bitter and crazy stuff came along. The best written and funniest and most intelligent blog in the "pick-up artist" space, before the term manosphere was widespread, was Chateau Heartiste, which ran from 2007-2019 and the early years were the best. The avowed aim of that anonymous blog was not hatred of women, but to "find and keep real, true unconditional love and happiness" with a woman. A completely different vibe from what you are describing.
https://heartiste.org/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/
I’ve written elsewhere how much of the PUA stuff of the past doesn’t align with what the Manosphere is today. I do understand that may not have been the origin for every part of that world but that what it largely has become.
Interesting question why it went the way it did.
The PUA advice of 15 years ago would not work at all today.
Cold approaches, in person, in public?
The age of the dating app has made that impossible, and even sound crazy.
The PUAs were hated, but they were nice guys compared to what we see today.
The old PUA/redpill scene was like a bunch of dudes in the locker room sharing notes and figuring out the best way to have sex, no politics involved.
Ok but that audible gasp for no reason meme is literally my girlfriend and me......
I don’t think men and women are fundamentally different. I can never truly understand another person; I’ve personally never attached the things I can’t understand, the little quirks of the people around me to a gender characteristic, and I don’t see how assuming correlation would have ever helped me. But idk I’m just a chill guy 🤷♀️
Yes, yes, and yes: "Even if we fundamentally disagree with these groups, the only way we’re going to get anywhere is if we at least try to understand each other a little better."
Demonizing an entire segment of society by association is not only disruptive to the broader political discourse, it will also come home to haunt you when you least expect it, as on November 5.
That Chill Guy meme is indirect support for my theory that the modern dating landscape is too complex for most straight guys today.
Cats have it so much better!
Wifejack is cute and endearing because it celebrates natural differences rather than making some broad commentary about them.